Ref the Stones albums, would seem to be quite an easy job to compare original with re-issue in the frequency domain if someone had examples of each they could rip. In terms of why there might be a difference I can think of a few.
1. degraded studio tapes or lost masters
2. Originals were cut to play on the bedroom dansettes of the time which skipped at the slightest bass and had cheap and nasty full range speakers with no real treble so the cut was 'tipped up'. A modern mastering to flat for modern systems would seem 'dull' compared to that.
3. The band wanted it that way
So I did a quick google and found Mad Mickey Fremer's review of it. The Rolling Stones in Mono Box Set Reviewed | Analog Planet there are some rips there of original vs reissue. Now according to this the original tapes were ripped to DSD before Bob L did the remastering.
I would say those old tapes got the best treatment that they could have. I certainly would not expect them to sound identical to the originals!
1. degraded studio tapes or lost masters
2. Originals were cut to play on the bedroom dansettes of the time which skipped at the slightest bass and had cheap and nasty full range speakers with no real treble so the cut was 'tipped up'. A modern mastering to flat for modern systems would seem 'dull' compared to that.
3. The band wanted it that way
So I did a quick google and found Mad Mickey Fremer's review of it. The Rolling Stones in Mono Box Set Reviewed | Analog Planet there are some rips there of original vs reissue. Now according to this the original tapes were ripped to DSD before Bob L did the remastering.
I would say those old tapes got the best treatment that they could have. I certainly would not expect them to sound identical to the originals!
Mark: Even good vinyl has at best 11 bits resolution. The miniDSP (2x10HD) has more than enough resolution for that. The good news is that, should my audiophilia nervosa demand it I can always upgrade the ADC and DAC stages down the line and keep the processing in the middle. It's a win win.
It's a hard jump for some (myself included ) to accept that a digital crossover is good news, but once you have the benefits far outweight the drawbacks. Plus a good 80% of my listening is to digital sources.
It's a hard jump for some (myself included ) to accept that a digital crossover is good news, but once you have the benefits far outweight the drawbacks. Plus a good 80% of my listening is to digital sources.
So, would you be in any way better off to route the digital output of your miniDSP-HD through your existing DAC, or route your existing digital output stream to the miniDSP DAC? Or would it be a toss up?
In all of this discussion of analog vs digital, the elephant in the room is that the signal 'storage medium' imparts a signature that typically carries right through to the speakers and into the room.
There are different formulations of vinyl each with individual signature and indeed differing shellac compounds impart individual signatures.
Different reel to reel and cassette tape formulations impart particular signatures.
Album 'remastering' result is not wholly the application of eq/compression etc, just as significant is the gear that the signal passes through.
IOW, two different 'flat' line level stages even if measuring vanishingly low D&N will impart different signature to the newly dubbed audio and this gets embedded into the new 'recording/transfer'.
Dan.
There are different formulations of vinyl each with individual signature and indeed differing shellac compounds impart individual signatures.
Different reel to reel and cassette tape formulations impart particular signatures.
Album 'remastering' result is not wholly the application of eq/compression etc, just as significant is the gear that the signal passes through.
IOW, two different 'flat' line level stages even if measuring vanishingly low D&N will impart different signature to the newly dubbed audio and this gets embedded into the new 'recording/transfer'.
Dan.
For the past few years MBL has run demos at trade shows where one of the sources is a highly modified /updated 15 ips reel to reel tape machine.
At the end of one of the shows a friend and I were treated to an hour of their Abbey Road studio master dubs. The system was a set of MBL 101 with their premium pre and power amps.
Dynamic range, resolution, overall smoothness were outstanding on 2nd generation 15 ips dubs of Talking Heads, Beatles, Bruce Springsteen, Peter Gabriel, etc - tracks I have known all my life, yet here they had a new degree of resolution and detail that were simply stunning. It was also disappointing as we both commented later. What we heard showed us that the distribution chain for the music we have listened to for decades ie FM radio, vinyl, CD, bit compromised streaming services, where the signal has passed through multiple mediocre signal chains -and multiple generation copies have reduced a lot of the best qualities of the original recording.
Well built phono, dac, or reel to reel can all achieve premium results if we could by pass this mediocre consumer distribution chain which has robbed us of the real essence of great recordings for decades . HD downloads at 24/96 and 192, DSD, second generation 15 ips reel to reel dubs, and 45 RPM vinyl albums all show what can be achieved when skill and attention to preserving a very short high quality distribution channel is made.
At the end of one of the shows a friend and I were treated to an hour of their Abbey Road studio master dubs. The system was a set of MBL 101 with their premium pre and power amps.
Dynamic range, resolution, overall smoothness were outstanding on 2nd generation 15 ips dubs of Talking Heads, Beatles, Bruce Springsteen, Peter Gabriel, etc - tracks I have known all my life, yet here they had a new degree of resolution and detail that were simply stunning. It was also disappointing as we both commented later. What we heard showed us that the distribution chain for the music we have listened to for decades ie FM radio, vinyl, CD, bit compromised streaming services, where the signal has passed through multiple mediocre signal chains -and multiple generation copies have reduced a lot of the best qualities of the original recording.
Well built phono, dac, or reel to reel can all achieve premium results if we could by pass this mediocre consumer distribution chain which has robbed us of the real essence of great recordings for decades . HD downloads at 24/96 and 192, DSD, second generation 15 ips reel to reel dubs, and 45 RPM vinyl albums all show what can be achieved when skill and attention to preserving a very short high quality distribution channel is made.
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I guess you never did debate society. BTW Bob Ludwig is also an authority and I said I could list more equally awarded and recognized. This is shaping up like some kind of paranoid conspiracy, everyone with a different opinion is a paid industry shill.
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Hurling personal opinion (exaggerated for effect) like insults again.
Joe Meek used to record with pillows and sheets over the drum kit. This thread has split into apples vs oranges, what recording engineers and producers do to create the music has little to do with the down stream electronics that preserve it.
I don't quite agree with that, I found that recording directly to 16 bits required a lot of care in level setting. Total integrated noise is a poor choice for N in S/N in this case.
That's not the point, you are right it is a case by case thing this all digital mastering was first rate. There is no need to line up in the trenches and argue analog vs digital.
Something useful I culled from the interviews with Mr. Ludwig. He found a 16/44.1 DAC that was far better than some, a pro unit at $8000. There is no parts BOM on earth to justify the price, it would be the R&D, limited volume, and exclusivity. Sussing out the secret sauce could make for a great DIY project.
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Seems likely they mostly use a Benchmark DAC-2 now, perhaps with a choice of some others such as Prism. DAC-2 is fairly new and may not have been available at the time of the interview. Some years ago Prism and Weiss made expensive units that might have been up in the $8k price range. There was also the Lavry Gold, which is no longer available due to use of some components no longer made. And there was Meitner up in that price range. In addition, it's possible he was talking about a unit with more than 2-channels.
EDIT: https://www.emmlabs.com/pdf/articles/ProLudwig.pdf Ludwig says audiophile DACS with worse specs than some other DACs can sound better.
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Unfortunately 16yr. is a technological eternity, though I find it interesting that he commented on analog trying to keep up with digital in 2000.
So at $1700 for a Benchmark 2 DIY saves less money with lots of work. I gather taming the ESS DAC's with the information that is freely available is no mean feat. The digital filter stuff is all well documented in many places. Mr. Siau is another pretty level headed open minded guy from what I gather.
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He's only an hour north in Portland ME (actually a wonderful place these days) time for a professional courtesy visit.
ref the $8000 converter he does mention Horus ($6000 +options), Apogee (can be $6000+) and dcs (if you have to ask etc).
I am intrigued that in many interviews he goes on about the 120V rails in his SPL labs console. https://spl.info/en/home/special-projects/mmc-1.html oddly the number of channels varies according to source. Maybe he upgraded!
EDIT: the SPL user manual contains a section on calibrating the VU meters for room temperature. That's a new one on me!
I am intrigued that in many interviews he goes on about the 120V rails in his SPL labs console. https://spl.info/en/home/special-projects/mmc-1.html oddly the number of channels varies according to source. Maybe he upgraded!
EDIT: the SPL user manual contains a section on calibrating the VU meters for room temperature. That's a new one on me!
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These things have so many channels and features it's hard to figure what a simple home product would need. Packed with 8-legs BTW
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I don't want a 'simple' home product, but also I need something anyone can use without an Apollo checklist* but gives me the power to twiddle. I want something that doesn't exist basically. Or maybe it does and just costs an offensive amount due to limited nutters.
Then again can anyone other than Dick Burwen work out how to use his big rig?
*Good reason for this, which will be explained at some point.
Then again can anyone other than Dick Burwen work out how to use his big rig?
*Good reason for this, which will be explained at some point.
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