The Omnidisk played just a few seconds around the canon at increasing levels, until eventual failure.
BTW considering the title and host of this thread I would think LP's are very on topic.
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A pick up element translates an alternating force into movement into AC, all this through electromagnetic means, and a loudspeaker does pretty much the same thing in the opposite direction.
It just occurred to me that because of this similarity in reversal, the polarity of the different distortion products in cartridge and loudspeaker might go into opposite directions as well. In that case, they would add destructively when the signal of a cartridge is fed into a loudspeaker with it's reverse distortion pattern.
Total distortion of the same loudspeaker fed with a clean signal would then be higher, that is, if confirmed.
This is such an obvious thought that many must have had it before; hopefully there are some published results on this matter. Anyone aware of them? Otherwise, it might be a fun test to do.
It just occurred to me that because of this similarity in reversal, the polarity of the different distortion products in cartridge and loudspeaker might go into opposite directions as well. In that case, they would add destructively when the signal of a cartridge is fed into a loudspeaker with it's reverse distortion pattern.
Total distortion of the same loudspeaker fed with a clean signal would then be higher, that is, if confirmed.
This is such an obvious thought that many must have had it before; hopefully there are some published results on this matter. Anyone aware of them? Otherwise, it might be a fun test to do.
Look guys, I am NOT in disagreement with everything that Jan says or measures, but I DO have a great deal of continuous experience with phono reproduction. I didn't forget it, just to listen to digital playback like so many here did. In fact, IF phono reproduction did actually fade away completely, nobody would even discuss it here. IF you do discuss phono reproduction here, I hope you give it half a chance to really sound wonderful, no matter what the measurements show. That is the fundamental question as to WHY this is so. The meters say that phono is almost impossible to get good sound, YET there it is!
Unfortunately, many of you will never have the best example of phono playback, because you will never invest enough into both the mechanics and the electronics that is necessary to get the most out of a good record. And I don't blame you. My best phono stage at the moment sells for the price of a pretty good new car. Buy the car, everybody, BUT you won't easily get the same performance without paying the price. I do offer a pretty good phono stage for $3,000, but you can do as well or better yourself, so don't waste your money on that either. MY customers just want good sound, AND they have the extra cash to invest into their phono system. Some of them are 'rolling in dough', AND they are truly grateful for better sound reproduction from their recordings. By the way, they usually have the best digital playback available as well, BUT they often still go back to vinyl. That is the reality that I live in guys, and I live it every day. For the record, I made equal quality measurements when I was in Switzerland, 40 years ago, comparable to many presented here. I do have a bit of experience with measuring phono cartridges, as much as just about anybody. I just don't do it today. So there.
Unfortunately, many of you will never have the best example of phono playback, because you will never invest enough into both the mechanics and the electronics that is necessary to get the most out of a good record. And I don't blame you. My best phono stage at the moment sells for the price of a pretty good new car. Buy the car, everybody, BUT you won't easily get the same performance without paying the price. I do offer a pretty good phono stage for $3,000, but you can do as well or better yourself, so don't waste your money on that either. MY customers just want good sound, AND they have the extra cash to invest into their phono system. Some of them are 'rolling in dough', AND they are truly grateful for better sound reproduction from their recordings. By the way, they usually have the best digital playback available as well, BUT they often still go back to vinyl. That is the reality that I live in guys, and I live it every day. For the record, I made equal quality measurements when I was in Switzerland, 40 years ago, comparable to many presented here. I do have a bit of experience with measuring phono cartridges, as much as just about anybody. I just don't do it today. So there.
Who are the 'so many' other than Richard?
most of the rest of us have pretty good vinyl rigs. I am certainly 2 steps behind people like SY as slumming it with a temporary phono stage but I love listening to vinyl even if it has no right to sound good. What I will not do is pay £30 for 180gm vinyl pressed off the digital transfer.
most of the rest of us have pretty good vinyl rigs. I am certainly 2 steps behind people like SY as slumming it with a temporary phono stage but I love listening to vinyl even if it has no right to sound good. What I will not do is pay £30 for 180gm vinyl pressed off the digital transfer.
Well you DID say 'I don't agree with you'. So what is it? I had no idea what you meant - not agree with what? Is it so difficult to actually say what you mean - and then not reverse your opinion a page later? This way, any discussion with you is meaningless, and you should not be surprised that nobody engages in it.
I and others have repeatedly said that despite the bad numbers, we enjoy listening to vinyl, and gave reasons for it. Maybe read what's written rather than read what you THINK is written?
Condescending again. Lots of people here have phono systems you should be envious of, phono systems you've never even dreamt of of owning. Just read the f***ing posts!
Jan
Yes, yes indeed. Just go for those PC speakers and u can get top flight sound no problem.
... my "pleasure" is to get the best out of whatever's in front of me - low cost equipment getting the sound 'right' is far more appealing than very expensive, ambitious machinery making a right mess of things, . It all comes down to what's most important for the individual, and for me it's the recording, not the technology being used for the exercise - I want to enjoy the recording, not be grinding my teeth while it's playing.I do note that the number of people who actually want to get the most of their recordings seems to be exceedingly small - tinkering seems to be the Big Game in town ...
I, rather like the analogy with what I do ... something that has absolutely no right to sound reasonable, by most people's estimation, can be made to deliver up a special quality, that overrides the supposed limitations. Why this happens is because intelligence has gone into the exercise - the absolute heart of what makes for pleasing sound has been addressed, and, voila ...
Jan, what I have recently been hearing about is Dennon, Grado, or cheap Ortofon cartridges. This is super fi? Some people appear to ignore the work of previous engineers from the 60's though the 80's regarding phono stylus design. Why is this? etc.
My disagreement with you, Jan, was concerning the hopelessness of making a mechanical system behave well enough to not be obtrusive without extra filtering. I run wide-band in my phono stages. There is no problem with this IF you match the cartridge compliance with the effective mass of the arm.
By the way, my latest phono preamp is going for $75,000, and it will be pretty darn good as well. It will be as quiet as a Vendetta Research, but with balanced input and output. You might ask Bob Cordell what I am up to. He saw one of my schematics at an event we were both at in February. Unfortunately, I cannot publish working schematics of my phono products, due to professional considerations. That is because I do this for a living, as well as for fun.
My disagreement with you, Jan, was concerning the hopelessness of making a mechanical system behave well enough to not be obtrusive without extra filtering. I run wide-band in my phono stages. There is no problem with this IF you match the cartridge compliance with the effective mass of the arm.
By the way, my latest phono preamp is going for $75,000, and it will be pretty darn good as well. It will be as quiet as a Vendetta Research, but with balanced input and output. You might ask Bob Cordell what I am up to. He saw one of my schematics at an event we were both at in February. Unfortunately, I cannot publish working schematics of my phono products, due to professional considerations. That is because I do this for a living, as well as for fun.
I too loved my record player and TT/arm/cart. I had Garrard Lab 80... wood damped arm with some sort of auto anti-scating etc etc. Shure cart or various types. Later, a Thorens TD124 transcription TT with SME 12 inch arm and a few cart of MM and MC type. later tried the Denon unipivot arm and other carts. Designed and built my own passive riaa phone and direct-coupled compl/push-pull (current-mode_ line stage. Owned the first JC MC pre-pre. designed and built my own pre-pre after that. Been all around the block with LP's. Modifications galore. Had a large collection of the best recordings including D to D. But, it was when I starting doing my own recordings on a 15/30 inch/sec 1/2 track machine and listening to that master tape, I made myself, the difference between LP and my masters was huge (IMO). So, much so, that i went into business partnership doing live on-location recording in the San Fransisco bay area for a number of years. I just could not go back to LP only after I heard the difference between master tape and LP.
After that, I went into acoustic research and then speaker system research and picking up CD's and playing them.... designing my own speakers and Amps and published the first DIY RTA for the consumer.
Only until DAW started getting serious and ADC/DAC got better, I dropped the LP interest. Now about to drop the CD. I have not bought a new CD in years. Dont buy new ones any more.... I have enjoyed the music of LP and of CD... but not the technology until 24/96+ and HD mastering. Not only are the musical performances just as good as ever to listen to but it sounds more and more live/real in quality. This is getting interesting and has my attention once again.
IMO.
Can't wait for 3-D like sound fields to get better so i can play with and add that dimension to music.
THx-RNMarsh
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I hope you do well with that. Sincerely. I've been working on phono preamps for about 15 years now and am close to an "affordable" high performance one, and I have interest from a high-end distributor---unfortunately he says his own business is essentially dead, but supposes that something sold more-or-less direct might be marginally profitable at something in the vicinity of $1500.
I mentioned that to my brother and he winced---I suspect he thought I would say 200 dollars. So I don't know.
Thank you FrankWW.
That was much encouraging.
My wishes for many commercially and technically successful preamplifiers bearing your name.
But please remember that this is a diy forum where issues should be challenged on a technical base only without invoking elitistic and misleading $$$ criteria (Bentley syndrom)
Lots of reference here from the participants. It seems you’ve missed those too.
Don’t put drama on it and words in his mouth.
Jan only pictured the reality.
If you decide to do some recordings and analyse them, you will see with your own eyes what happens on your properly-matched system.
Come back and show your measurements.
George
Unfortunately for me, I never had the best TT/Arm/Cart system. I stopped at about a few thousand dollars and a Grace arm. I have seen some amazing (looking) engineered TT in Asia for $10,000. Seemed like a reasonable price for the engineering and build quality that went into it. Your new preamp, built in the same vain, should be amazing as well. But, for me and for so many, many reasons, the LP medium - as good as it can sound - and in some ways better than CD (16/44K) has just too many built-in/systemic problems. And, something that wears out and increases distortion as you play it is also a problem for me.
Can we get such wonderful bal discrete analog I/O circuits for other than LP? Line levels for ADC/DAC I/O, would be welcomed.
-RM
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