So try REW with corner speaker placement, it seems you didn't? 🙂
Personally, I don’t hear such problems with modern DSP, purists can use an analog parametric ))
I think (from memory🙂) the M2 horn is 120 degree horizontal ?
If going in the corners I'd be looking at 90 degree horns, maybe lower.
Rob.
If going in the corners I'd be looking at 90 degree horns, maybe lower.
Rob.
That's my feeling too. I think the M2's 120 degree horizontal will bounce pretty hard off the rooms walls, and create a lot of combing.
I think the wider the speaker baffle is, could help counter counter that some, but i'd still want a narrower horn H pattern.
Did you just say it doesn't matter where in the corner the speaker is placed, or REW doesn't matter? It sure does. Or could you make your question clearer?
It's not about hearing, though ultimately it is.
You probably can't hear the difference between a speaker that is flat from 22 Hz or 28 Hz, I'd still rather design from 22, other things being equal. Every technical solution has drawbacks, you don't want to add too many of the same or ones that amplify each other. Hearing the dsp is hard to compare. Could you get rid of the dsp to be able to hear the difference, or easy swap software vs a hardware solution? Don't think so. So I tell myself it's really good, but no way to prove it.
I didn't say anything like that.
The speaker in the corner excites all modes, but it does not complicate but rather makes bass equalization easier.
My 2,1 plays from 17, doesn't require massive EQ, so I'm able to compare similar settings with and without EQ. I have done enough blind tests as well as human trials 😎 And I'm not going to worry about things that can't be heard, even if they ultimately exist 😉
M2 horizontal contour: 120 'ish' yes.
Apologies to all, but I haven't figured out how to use multi reply on the new DIYAudio forum!
Without getting into the various positions on this, Toole suggests preference is for wide, even pattern regardless of the reflectivity of the room, and I'm happy to go along with this position in order to move forward with a design.
I have a temporary setup with a narrow pattern horn right now, and it doesn't sound nearly as good as it did in the small room it was in before, so am happy to go for 'wider' if not truely 'wide'.
The room as it stands right now:
Don't be fooled by the tiles. They are 4ft x 2ft, and the horns are 600mm (2ft) wide so this space is larger than it seams in the image.
Note the vaulted ceiling, and unfortunately lots of hard surfaces (tiled floor). Their will be space for a nice thick rug between the speakers and sofa.
In terms of total room size/layout it's a open plan house ground floor with kitchen at other end:
The area is 100m2. (10m x 10m)
As you can see, the room layout is rather set due to the kitchen at the other end. A gym is also located on the red carpet shown above.
Not aware of a decent horn for my driver other than this or the jbl 2384 (narrower pattern, but that is physically too large for the space available.)
Amplification/crossover/EQ is 2x Hypex fa253 (6 channels total), so flat on axis shouldn't be too much problem, bit cannot fix pattern control with EQ of course.
I was hoping to get CD 'ish style response over the space in front of the speakers.
Sub will take below 80hz, and will be placed in the wall roughly between the 2 speakers.
Erin has measured several in wall speakers, and found the KEF design to be the best, but it cannot produce the SPL needed for this build.
KEF in wall:
Revel in wall:
Focal in wall:
Looking at all the in wall speakers Erin measured, they all have wall to wall (180degree) coverage up to approx 1500hz, so I assume the M2 wall would do the same?
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You can do this as many times as you need...
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Can you describe what is wrong with the current setup, what you don’t like? Why do you think a wider pattern would be useful?
By the way, a great house, I wish you a good sound there!👍
Hard to describe what the problem is with the setup. Nothing specific is wrong, but it was genuinely magical in the small (heavily damped) room it was in before.
As long as you stayed more than say 3m away, It just sounded spine tinglingly real. The soundstage was just that. A real stage Infront of you, with a real singer in the middle who sounded very close to you if recorded close, or miles away if miles away.
It sounds much more like a very good, but 'regular' speaker sounds in the current location. Not bad at all, but I'm looking for the best I can get.
Thanks for the comments on the house. I've built it all myself over the last 6 years, so that is really appreciated! 👍
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It looks like an underdamped room, most probably is one?
If you're having lots of echoes, they tend to cover the top end of the spectrum (reverb in mid frequencies amplify that range), so you'll mostly have no idea whats wrong untill you eq 6dB or more in the top section, start at 5 to 7 KHz and give that a try.
Like others said, curtains and the rug might turn out best investments SQ wise.
Fool around with that just to see if that helps a bit, might give you an idea where to look for.
And by the way, great room, awesome windows in that roof/ceiling! But also, indeed many reflections to your listening position. Not an easy room. Yet🙂
If you're having lots of echoes, they tend to cover the top end of the spectrum (reverb in mid frequencies amplify that range), so you'll mostly have no idea whats wrong untill you eq 6dB or more in the top section, start at 5 to 7 KHz and give that a try.
Like others said, curtains and the rug might turn out best investments SQ wise.
Fool around with that just to see if that helps a bit, might give you an idea where to look for.
And by the way, great room, awesome windows in that roof/ceiling! But also, indeed many reflections to your listening position. Not an easy room. Yet🙂
Sorry, my last post got lost halfway through.
Basically if you are putting speakers right into the corners you will only get 90 degrees horizontal due to the walls themselves. The actual mouth of the horn will be spaced a little from the room walls so better to have it 'reflection free' by not having a wider dispersion than 90 degrees. The M2 horizontal plot you posted looks like it narrows to approx 60deg at around 800Hz (xo frequency?) so why not use a 60 degree horn and be smoother / more even from 800-20,000Hz and have the bass staying around 90 degrees from ~450Hz down ?
Rob.
Basically if you are putting speakers right into the corners you will only get 90 degrees horizontal due to the walls themselves. The actual mouth of the horn will be spaced a little from the room walls so better to have it 'reflection free' by not having a wider dispersion than 90 degrees. The M2 horizontal plot you posted looks like it narrows to approx 60deg at around 800Hz (xo frequency?) so why not use a 60 degree horn and be smoother / more even from 800-20,000Hz and have the bass staying around 90 degrees from ~450Hz down ?
Rob.
I'd like to point out the elephant in the room. JBL M2 has an expensive wide dispersion horn for large venues like commercial theaters full of sound absorbing bodies in clothes on urethane stuffed seats. You have a narrow highly reflective room. 60 deg dispersion horns would help solve a lot problems if mounted in the corners. For example from the catalog I have complete, the eminence H14ea 1.4" cd horn with 60 deg x 40 deg dispersion. N314T-8 compression driver would work. www.eminence.com
15" woofers beam (narrow disperson) in a two way if a lot of care is not taken to widen dispersion. For example my SP2(2004) have trapezoidal shaped cabinets to spread 500-2000 hz from woofer out to the side. In your case regular rectangular woofer boxes with ports would work, or even sealed box. Beaming is what you want. You get a lot of room gain by putting woofer in the corner, and you don't need that in your narrow hard wall room. BTW I operate my home rig at 1/8 to 50 W, with 50 w being hit about once a year. My room is very dead with bookcases everywhere, carpet, acoustic tile ceiling, couple of electric organs, urethane stuffed couch & chair to break up room modes. Your room is the opposite. Hard reflective & clean. You may hear better sound at 1/20th watt.
15" woofers beam (narrow disperson) in a two way if a lot of care is not taken to widen dispersion. For example my SP2(2004) have trapezoidal shaped cabinets to spread 500-2000 hz from woofer out to the side. In your case regular rectangular woofer boxes with ports would work, or even sealed box. Beaming is what you want. You get a lot of room gain by putting woofer in the corner, and you don't need that in your narrow hard wall room. BTW I operate my home rig at 1/8 to 50 W, with 50 w being hit about once a year. My room is very dead with bookcases everywhere, carpet, acoustic tile ceiling, couple of electric organs, urethane stuffed couch & chair to break up room modes. Your room is the opposite. Hard reflective & clean. You may hear better sound at 1/20th watt.
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Nominal dispersion patterns for loudspeakers are typically stated at the -6dB, not the -3dB point.
My apologies, In that case this suggestion for a 90 degree CD horn may be better.
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Yeah tough looking space, I don't know how it sounds and what would sound better than something else but thought to write still, just to participate 😀 I'd put the.listening position a lot closer and increase toe in, or at least experiment with the listening position, probably very important for good sound no matter what the speakers are.
If the listening position is so far the first and even secondary reflections happen in quite low angle making them arrive quite soon after direct sound and probably color a lot. That said perhaps wide dispersion works just fine as long as it has very good off axis response to reduce coloration and perhaps some extra acoustic treatment here and there to shorten any excess reverberation. Or perhaps you could beam it as suggested, very narrow dispersion, perhaps just 15" fullrange driver system or something. Or perhaps you like it already without any special tricks 🙂 if soffit mounts are your dream I'd build them, sounds like a lot of fun!
If the listening position is so far the first and even secondary reflections happen in quite low angle making them arrive quite soon after direct sound and probably color a lot. That said perhaps wide dispersion works just fine as long as it has very good off axis response to reduce coloration and perhaps some extra acoustic treatment here and there to shorten any excess reverberation. Or perhaps you could beam it as suggested, very narrow dispersion, perhaps just 15" fullrange driver system or something. Or perhaps you like it already without any special tricks 🙂 if soffit mounts are your dream I'd build them, sounds like a lot of fun!
First can we talk about what acoustic dispersion actually means. It is not the coverage angle!!!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_dispersion
Next question is if you want to build a copy of the JBL M2 loudspeaker, where do you plan to get the horns?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_dispersion
Next question is if you want to build a copy of the JBL M2 loudspeaker, where do you plan to get the horns?