This is indoors at 1m I think.
The idea that the suspension is being stressed, by lower frequencies excursion, the other frequencies being produced, having parts of their oscillations, within the stressed conditions of whats happening... for example, if 2mm is Xmax, a higher frequency may ask for 0.5mm while a lower one causes 3mm. Every time the diaphragm goes past Xmax, its still creating the 0.5mm oscillations, during the time, past xmax, and imposing those conditions on that frequency.
Most of your work will be balancing the whole performance. You'll need to negotiate modes with good design, including some mitigation.
Yes that will be good, in so far as it won't prevent you from attaining those goals. Besides, it's easy enough to integrate a sub after the fact, even if your working space is somewhat limited.
I'm sorry not RMS, but 95db Average at 1 meter
whats the highest Thd you expect to see at your true peak performance. True Peak being the transient spl level, over average.
Yes, it is, but not using the approach Camplo decided to use.
You guys are busting my balls lol but I really appreciate the honesty, and usually need the stark response to get the juices going.
Art is telling me the THD is too high in the Max linear range if I am truly aiming for 115db/1m... I am trying to duck that by pointing out that it sounds good, and that though the thd is looking sketchy, I am not hearing any issues when listening at 95db or similar. I've done other experiments, Like 15" vs PPSL where the issue is not THD but something more tangible, FR. In the room, the PPSL measured better than the 15". When I turned over the PPSL and got the woofers, basically on floor, the FR was even better.
I am going to put the horn back together and do so more measuring to get to the bottom of this.
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@200Hz, 85 dB the system produces 3% THD. Still 10x to much. And here it starts to be important but at 115, you ears will distort so much it doesn't matter. It might sound fine for some but if you get rid of it, you would notice a "dull mist of grey" disappearing.
40% second is like having yet one clarinet playing an octave higher, yet same score, turning your solo recital to a duo performance
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40% second is like having yet one clarinet playing an octave higher, yet same score, turning your solo recital to a duo performance
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I have my own tests and experiences - I'll stick with these. And I don't listen to "synthesised sounds" but rather acoustical instruments I have some experience from in real life. We are all different.
I hope you can hear your system in stereo before 2026 - wouldn't that be fun? Merry C!
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I hope you can hear your system in stereo before 2026 - wouldn't that be fun? Merry C!
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If I'm understood it right, having high harmonic distortion in a THD plot at low frequency might mean high IMD for the whole bandwidth. For example on a woofer there are multiple sources for harmonic distortion that would show on as 3rd harmonic. Simplified, one source for distortion is suspension and another is motor. If high harmonic distortion number at low frequency is due to non-linearity in the suspension, it would likely have very little effect on high frequency performance where suspension is less involved, and thus would cause less IMD high up. But, if the high harmonic distortion is due to non-linearity in motor, then it likely would show more IMD because electrical parameters in the motor depend on excursion affecting the whole bandwidth.
Anyway, if you see high harmonic distortion at low frequency band of a driver, worst case the distortion means high IMD for the whole bandwidth, even though the swept THD measure showed low distortion at high frequency.
Thus, one should evaluate distortion performance also with multitone, play the 200Hz and 1kHz or 6kHz or something, and see IMD sidebands appear. You could have 20 tones for the pass band and evaluate how much peaks of the tones are above the "grass" between the tones. See Joseph Crowe site, he has posted this kind of measurements.
While 2nd or 3rd order harmonics are not very audible as such aligning well with the musical content, the sidebands due to IMD would not align and likely be the audible part of distortion, if any. I do not know what is cause of distortion in your case, and if it makes IMD and if it's audible or not. Since it is elevated, it would be worth checking out, perhaps little adjustment here or there can make audible difference.
Anyway, if you see high harmonic distortion at low frequency band of a driver, worst case the distortion means high IMD for the whole bandwidth, even though the swept THD measure showed low distortion at high frequency.
Thus, one should evaluate distortion performance also with multitone, play the 200Hz and 1kHz or 6kHz or something, and see IMD sidebands appear. You could have 20 tones for the pass band and evaluate how much peaks of the tones are above the "grass" between the tones. See Joseph Crowe site, he has posted this kind of measurements.
While 2nd or 3rd order harmonics are not very audible as such aligning well with the musical content, the sidebands due to IMD would not align and likely be the audible part of distortion, if any. I do not know what is cause of distortion in your case, and if it makes IMD and if it's audible or not. Since it is elevated, it would be worth checking out, perhaps little adjustment here or there can make audible difference.
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I respect the science. Lets not forget the psychoacoustic science, but I do get where you are coming from.... It definitely challenges me to do better. Maybe this can be my motivation to invent the next thing.
Below is a sloppy voicing. I only say that because I can't say I spent a bunch of time on it. I plan to try AudioLense Xo shortly, for voicing...whatever. THD has been a topic. Points were made.
Frequency Response is one the most important aspects of sound quality. Gedlee you did mention my response from the ppsl, but what about the Horn? This is at ~1m in my living room..... I am having a hard time finding any 1m measurements of the Gedlee NS15 do you have them to share? Anechoic or Echoic alll are welcome. This is also the direction of my FR at listening position... Do you have any measurements of your system at the listening position?
(1/12smoothing)
(Raw)
I forgot to share my idea. I happened across this post of yours and I think it supports my idea. I should be able to measure thd with the horn off.... All I have to do is use the voicing intended for the horn.
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I found an Abey in room measurement. Impressive, I wonder what the smoothing is, if any. I think its 1/12 but averaged...
"I won't be taking free field quasi-anechoic measurements for a while, so what I put up will be in room, but with some spatial averaging of the mic to reduce the effects of the room."
"Again, I want to warn that these are not anechoic measurements, they don't really even fit atb's requirements to get properly averaged quasi-anechoic, the speakers were measured at 2 meters in location. This measurement is with the mic in place, but the speaker turned through roughly a 60-90 degree range."
"I won't be taking free field quasi-anechoic measurements for a while, so what I put up will be in room, but with some spatial averaging of the mic to reduce the effects of the room."
"Again, I want to warn that these are not anechoic measurements, they don't really even fit atb's requirements to get properly averaged quasi-anechoic, the speakers were measured at 2 meters in location. This measurement is with the mic in place, but the speaker turned through roughly a 60-90 degree range."
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Checking in since 5000 posts ago, i have finished the 3rd (or 4th?) attempt at such a 2 way..
A K402 clone horn with jbl 2453J and dual faital 15pr400, complete with a passive crossover
https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/232459-klipsch-k402-replica-build/page/2/
A K402 clone horn with jbl 2453J and dual faital 15pr400, complete with a passive crossover
https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/232459-klipsch-k402-replica-build/page/2/
Hello Camplo
Are you discussing a compression driver??? If you go "past" x-max distortion will be the least of your issues when you start smacking the phase plug. Not sure what compression driver or suspension type you are using. There is a difference between clamped ring with no true suspension and a typical driver. You will get increasing distortion using a clamped ring as compared to a normal driver the lower you go. Example being a JBL D2430 vs 2450.
Rob
1 meter has and will always be my preferred listening distance. I set out to design the largest build I could that would sum well at 1m. At 200hz crossover I have achieved that. The THD/IMD is still being investigated.
I could also argue that non of your Two ways that do not reach near 1/4WL spacing at crossover have good imaging.... and that its really a matter of "it sounds good to me" until someone like myself comes around and disagrees. Which measurement should I turn to, to judging how well a speaker Imaging? Not Frequency response, Not THD, being Diffraction free won't stop a source thats spread too far apart from sounding like two sources. So you all are walking around saying your large two ways with large horns or waveguides crossed to large woofer, well beyond 1/4WL spacing have "great imaging"... When in actuality These configurations have great imaging and the former is just a "sounds good to me"
If you move closer it definitely removes the veil, and the imaging of more common, large two ways, will not have good imaging at 1m.... Not crossed at 600hz, thats for sure. I keep trying to remind some of you that at the top of the food chain, we seem to take move to the right or left, but not exactly better. By creating constant directivity (while not using a synergy) you widen the X axis sweet spot, yet you've shortened the Sweet Spot on the Z axis your head is now in a vice, you have no choice but to sit further back, in order to mitigate this Flaw. You might say well these designs weren't intended to be used at 1m but potentially neither were the Tom Danely or Genelec, its just that their imaging is soooo good.... it can be.
If you had all the pictured loudspeakers in a room set up at 1 meter, and you think the JBl or Gedlee will image better than speakers pictured at the top. You are mistaken. That gives question to, how much better do those designs image, at 7ft....
I could also argue that non of your Two ways that do not reach near 1/4WL spacing at crossover have good imaging.... and that its really a matter of "it sounds good to me" until someone like myself comes around and disagrees. Which measurement should I turn to, to judging how well a speaker Imaging? Not Frequency response, Not THD, being Diffraction free won't stop a source thats spread too far apart from sounding like two sources. So you all are walking around saying your large two ways with large horns or waveguides crossed to large woofer, well beyond 1/4WL spacing have "great imaging"... When in actuality These configurations have great imaging and the former is just a "sounds good to me"
If you move closer it definitely removes the veil, and the imaging of more common, large two ways, will not have good imaging at 1m.... Not crossed at 600hz, thats for sure. I keep trying to remind some of you that at the top of the food chain, we seem to take move to the right or left, but not exactly better. By creating constant directivity (while not using a synergy) you widen the X axis sweet spot, yet you've shortened the Sweet Spot on the Z axis
your head is now in a vice, you have no choice but to sit further back, in order to mitigate this Flaw. You might say well these designs weren't intended to be used at 1m but potentially neither were the Tom Danely or Genelec, its just that their imaging is soooo good.... it can be.If you had all the pictured loudspeakers in a room set up at 1 meter, and you think the JBl or Gedlee will image better than speakers pictured at the top. You are mistaken. That gives question to, how much better do those designs image, at 7ft....
What would make you think that with my complete disregard for Thd that I would even hazard a guess at this meaningless number?
I've reached 120 dB(A) in my theater with no perceptible distortion. My system has lots and lots of headroom. Way more than is ever required.