Audibly jittery DAC became a thing of the past at least 20 years ago. Welcome to 21st century.
Most likely due to your listening position change, not because of DAC unless the previous DAC was malfunctioning.
@kazap.
I'm neither hopeless nor confused, I've simply never experienced the so called stereo effect, what makes you say I have not been disciplined or scientific in my approach to it? I'm not looking for anybody to solve my problem for me, I'm simply sharing my experience and wondering if any body has had a similar experience. There have been a few posts in this thread that mention others with the same experience that I have had.
I'm neither hopeless nor confused, I've simply never experienced the so called stereo effect, what makes you say I have not been disciplined or scientific in my approach to it? I'm not looking for anybody to solve my problem for me, I'm simply sharing my experience and wondering if any body has had a similar experience. There have been a few posts in this thread that mention others with the same experience that I have had.
I thought that was clear from the get-go, but I realize that if one is not familiar with how perception works, it might be hard to understand.
It might be a matter of respect to mtidge not to try to convince him to get new speakers or a DAC or whatever irrelevant stuff (in this context).
Jan
Agreed, barring damaged drivers - only mentioned because I have run into this but don't believe it's the case here - your system appears well above capable of creating a simple phantom centre. It likely is you though I hesitate to call the brain not synthesizing 2 channel stereo into something it's not a perceptual flaw.
I wrote that you run the risk of being confused.
Your replies, apparent assumptions and lack of demonstrating effective problem solving.
No one can. Only you can. Thats the problem. Your brain seems to have two problems here. One is challenges in stereo spatial perception. The other is understanding how to work out how to diagnose the problem. Answers in this thread already point to solutions you seem to have not grasped. The fun thing is by being open and curious your brain can rewire itself.
Its a fascinating thread. Thanks for sharing. I for one had no idea this issue even existed. It might help lots of other users. It will be even more helpful to you and others if you can identify how to problem solve.
Is your issue wired in your brain or from lack of hearing an outstanding stereo with excellent recordings?
Kazap, it's not a stereo issue! It's a perception issue about being unable to visualize things in your mind.
That he cannot visualize a stereo sound field is only a tiny part of it but it is not 'the' problem.
Don't tell him what his problem is unless you are sure you understand it.
Check out https://www.buzzfeed.com/angelicaamartinez/minds-eye-quiz
Jan
@kazap,
I can assure that I don't lack troubleshooting skills, it has been one of my strongest assets and made me a very successful technician over my 40 year plus career. If it doesn't come across in my posts might because I'm trying to describe in words how my perceptions work, not an easy task. Think of quantum theory where merely observing a phenomena will change it. When I referred to a problem, it isn't actually a problem, maybe just how my brain and maybe a few others work, I'm trying to correlate things I've known about my brain with my inability experience the rich stereo experience the rest of the world seems to enjoy. I've been rearranging my listening experience toeing in, toing-out, trying different speakers, listening to high cost multichannel audio systems in expensive cars for years. Where I have arrived now is this is just how I am and I'm fine with it. And your welcome for thanking me for starting this thread and I thank you for your participation.
@jan,
You are starting to like my hero for understanding me.
@everyone,
Thanks for you responses, this is turning into a very interesting conversation.
I can assure that I don't lack troubleshooting skills, it has been one of my strongest assets and made me a very successful technician over my 40 year plus career. If it doesn't come across in my posts might because I'm trying to describe in words how my perceptions work, not an easy task. Think of quantum theory where merely observing a phenomena will change it. When I referred to a problem, it isn't actually a problem, maybe just how my brain and maybe a few others work, I'm trying to correlate things I've known about my brain with my inability experience the rich stereo experience the rest of the world seems to enjoy. I've been rearranging my listening experience toeing in, toing-out, trying different speakers, listening to high cost multichannel audio systems in expensive cars for years. Where I have arrived now is this is just how I am and I'm fine with it. And your welcome for thanking me for starting this thread and I thank you for your participation.
@jan,
You are starting to like my hero for understanding me.
@everyone,
Thanks for you responses, this is turning into a very interesting conversation.
Great thread, thanks @mtidge for sharing. I would echo the sentiment posted earlier by @kazap regarding your self awareness.
I have a TDA1543 NOS DAC that, sometimes 'pops' a 3D image well out in front of the speakers that is trivial to 'lock onto' from almost anywhere in the room - I've never heard a high-end or well developed system but my reference DAC, an Allo Revolution, which measures extremely well, doesn't behave this way, nor does my TDA1387 NOS DAC. I don't know what conditions cause this phenomenon - something to do with phase I think, but I have observed it with many cheapo speaker configurations with this DAC - my stock Mazda car stereo, a low-end Cambridge Audio desktop 2.1 rig and so on.
To get back, hopefully, on topic, a question for @mtidge - how do you get on with 3D Magic Eye pictures, where slight variations in vertical strips of a repeated pattern yield a hidden 3D shape, a ghost image, when viewed the right way?
I have a TDA1543 NOS DAC that, sometimes 'pops' a 3D image well out in front of the speakers that is trivial to 'lock onto' from almost anywhere in the room - I've never heard a high-end or well developed system but my reference DAC, an Allo Revolution, which measures extremely well, doesn't behave this way, nor does my TDA1387 NOS DAC. I don't know what conditions cause this phenomenon - something to do with phase I think, but I have observed it with many cheapo speaker configurations with this DAC - my stock Mazda car stereo, a low-end Cambridge Audio desktop 2.1 rig and so on.
To get back, hopefully, on topic, a question for @mtidge - how do you get on with 3D Magic Eye pictures, where slight variations in vertical strips of a repeated pattern yield a hidden 3D shape, a ghost image, when viewed the right way?
The “phantom centre” is really a defect - you should hear two distinct but identical sources, so maybe your perception is better than average. I have heard people describe a centre when it’s actually two instruments playing, one from each speaker
Out of interest, I get more accurate left/right positioning with impulses, so can locate drums and piano etc., but everything else is quite vague
Brian
Out of interest, I get more accurate left/right positioning with impulses, so can locate drums and piano etc., but everything else is quite vague
Brian
@Hadox,
Your welcome, I spent hours staring at, through, un-focusing my eyes, etc. at those things and mostly nothing popped out 3D. Once for a split second a flying saucer popped, partially and then no matter how long I stared it never came back again. It is funny, at the time my in-laws had a book of them and all of them saw them easily, my mother-in-law could not and finally told they were full of it and they weren't seeing anything. She is long gone now so I can't ask her about anything I've discussed here.
I discussed this with a customer and sent him a link to this thread, he sent me this back.
This post from Blake Ross (mozilla co-creator) about his experience learning he has Aphantasia is pretty interesting. I bet you've already read it https://medicine.exeter.ac.uk/media..._Ross_April_2016_facebook_post_Aphantasia.pdf
Your welcome, I spent hours staring at, through, un-focusing my eyes, etc. at those things and mostly nothing popped out 3D. Once for a split second a flying saucer popped, partially and then no matter how long I stared it never came back again. It is funny, at the time my in-laws had a book of them and all of them saw them easily, my mother-in-law could not and finally told they were full of it and they weren't seeing anything. She is long gone now so I can't ask her about anything I've discussed here.
I discussed this with a customer and sent him a link to this thread, he sent me this back.
This post from Blake Ross (mozilla co-creator) about his experience learning he has Aphantasia is pretty interesting. I bet you've already read it https://medicine.exeter.ac.uk/media..._Ross_April_2016_facebook_post_Aphantasia.pdf
@mtidge,
Hadox's comment is spot on, From a technical point of view youre hearing sense tells you the truth, there simply are two distinct sound sources in front of you.
I' ve mentioned quite often in various threads that a small percentage of the population does not experince the stereo illusion, means does not perceive a virtual sound source mid center if both frontal speakers are reproducing the same sound, so it shouldn't be such a surprise if someone actually belongs to this group.
Unfortunately the usual two-channel system relies on the listeners ability to experience this virtual sound source (or better, on the listeners brain ability to create such an illusion), the additional third dimension in a 3d-illusion is another part.
I don't know if it possible to kind of learn that - we others seem to be unable to unlearn this effect, and it doesn't if we listen blind or sighted - but some people seem to be able to overcome the in head localisation when listening to unprocessed two channel music via headphones.
Otherwise the only solution seems to be a setup with multiple front speakers and processing to route the two channel signals to the according loudspeakers, so to speak an enhanced version of the trinaural systems where a third speaker is placed at the mid center position for reproduction of the "mid center virtual sound source".
Hadox's comment is spot on, From a technical point of view youre hearing sense tells you the truth, there simply are two distinct sound sources in front of you.
I' ve mentioned quite often in various threads that a small percentage of the population does not experince the stereo illusion, means does not perceive a virtual sound source mid center if both frontal speakers are reproducing the same sound, so it shouldn't be such a surprise if someone actually belongs to this group.
Unfortunately the usual two-channel system relies on the listeners ability to experience this virtual sound source (or better, on the listeners brain ability to create such an illusion), the additional third dimension in a 3d-illusion is another part.
I don't know if it possible to kind of learn that - we others seem to be unable to unlearn this effect, and it doesn't if we listen blind or sighted - but some people seem to be able to overcome the in head localisation when listening to unprocessed two channel music via headphones.
Otherwise the only solution seems to be a setup with multiple front speakers and processing to route the two channel signals to the according loudspeakers, so to speak an enhanced version of the trinaural systems where a third speaker is placed at the mid center position for reproduction of the "mid center virtual sound source".
Without having advanced knowledge of acoustics, but some electronics applied to audio, I allow myself to relate my experience.
You can see my current room. A little description.
The rear JBL speakers (behind my listening point, which I use exclusively for those "mint" recording sessions ahead of the couch) are off because I removed the HT system, but they act as bass traps. The Eminence subwoofers are positioned as you can see, only their shape differs. (I built them in the form of prisms, to take advantage of the corners)
I use a tube amplifier (I went back to the sources after years in the SS world, multichannel, etc.) that feeds two DTQWTII speakers that radiate to the front, to the back and a double horn to the floor.
The subwoofers are cut below the second octave, (40 HZ, yes, just that) and fed with a lot of power. ( here there are no problems with using SS, they are class D )
Right now I'm writing in sector B, looking out the window, and listening to streaming music behind my back. Not much is lost, just the feeling that the sound is coming from behind.
I've had other systems before in traditional (rectangular) room shapes and with SS amps, and I've never been able to achieve as pronounced a sense of depth and surround sound as I do now.
I attribute it to several factors, it is never attributable to a single point.
In the first place to the irregular shape of the place, of different dimensions and unevenness. Bass is present everywhere, there are only a few spots with lower SPL, but no null spots or abrupt changes when walking all over the place.
The amp (yes, they don't all sound the same, and for the midrange, the tube is irreplaceable for me)
The speakers ( horns and large SD ) .
The power applied only in its fair measure, where I need it, in the subfrequencies. The rhythmic base is still present in old recordings.
The amount of absorbent/refractory elements of both environments. (magazines, books, carpets, curtains, armchairs, cushions, etc.)
I consider myself lucky, but achieving this current situation has come after
many housing and sound system changes over almost a lifetime, a lot of water has passed under the bridge. Now I'm experiencing a revival with vinyl and my first MC capsule (!?), and I'm surprising myself with new tonalities (timbres) of the instruments.
I'm sorry for the crudeness of my drawing, for me it is faster to make a sketch and photograph it than to use a PC editing program.
You can see my current room. A little description.
The rear JBL speakers (behind my listening point, which I use exclusively for those "mint" recording sessions ahead of the couch) are off because I removed the HT system, but they act as bass traps. The Eminence subwoofers are positioned as you can see, only their shape differs. (I built them in the form of prisms, to take advantage of the corners)
I use a tube amplifier (I went back to the sources after years in the SS world, multichannel, etc.) that feeds two DTQWTII speakers that radiate to the front, to the back and a double horn to the floor.
The subwoofers are cut below the second octave, (40 HZ, yes, just that) and fed with a lot of power. ( here there are no problems with using SS, they are class D )
Right now I'm writing in sector B, looking out the window, and listening to streaming music behind my back. Not much is lost, just the feeling that the sound is coming from behind.
I've had other systems before in traditional (rectangular) room shapes and with SS amps, and I've never been able to achieve as pronounced a sense of depth and surround sound as I do now.
I attribute it to several factors, it is never attributable to a single point.
In the first place to the irregular shape of the place, of different dimensions and unevenness. Bass is present everywhere, there are only a few spots with lower SPL, but no null spots or abrupt changes when walking all over the place.
The amp (yes, they don't all sound the same, and for the midrange, the tube is irreplaceable for me)
The speakers ( horns and large SD ) .
The power applied only in its fair measure, where I need it, in the subfrequencies. The rhythmic base is still present in old recordings.
The amount of absorbent/refractory elements of both environments. (magazines, books, carpets, curtains, armchairs, cushions, etc.)
I consider myself lucky, but achieving this current situation has come after
many housing and sound system changes over almost a lifetime, a lot of water has passed under the bridge. Now I'm experiencing a revival with vinyl and my first MC capsule (!?), and I'm surprising myself with new tonalities (timbres) of the instruments.
I'm sorry for the crudeness of my drawing, for me it is faster to make a sketch and photograph it than to use a PC editing program.
Attachments
Try reducing the acoustical crosstalk. Listen to stereo as normal, but hold a flat object (about a foot square or more),
parallel to the side walls and in front of your nose, pointing to the center of the line between the speakers.
This will clarify the stereo image quite a bit. You haven't mentioned trying headphones, do they work any better?
@academia50,
Excellent sketch, be careful because someone might tell you can't get a stereo image in sector B.
@Pano,
This is might point, the highest probability the cause is me.
@rayma,
I used headphones and no stereo illusion, all the ones I have owned are gone now because I prefer the open sound of speakers verse the closed sound from the head phones. Also, the ear pads all rotted away over time so they went in the trash.
Excellent sketch, be careful because someone might tell you can't get a stereo image in sector B.
@Pano,
This is might point, the highest probability the cause is me.
@rayma,
I used headphones and no stereo illusion, all the ones I have owned are gone now because I prefer the open sound of speakers verse the closed sound from the head phones. Also, the ear pads all rotted away over time so they went in the trash.
I don't like headphones either.
Try that test, or at least try cupping your hands behind your ears (but this also will change the balance).
If there are questions, it will be answered, no problem, Willie !
Attachments
I think you meant something else, what we perceive in the R and L channels is not virtual, it is real, they are different signals coming from the sources.
How do you know what his problem is? You appear to assume what his problem without knowing the OP or demonstrating any evidence? You actually appear to be guilty of what you accuse "Don't tell him what his problem is unless you are sure you understand it."
The OP has stated he has no problems with spatial sound location in nature. This appears to rule out an inherent perception disorder, presumable in the secondary sensory integration brain region. He says its just with stereos. But he hasn't heard a very high end stereo with the rare ability to entirely unglue imaging from the speakers and present palpable 3D "ghost" image for most listeners.
So the cause of the problem is unknown. Is it his brain, stereo failure or a combination?
Is it his brain? Like you I think this is most likely but I dont know that.
Is it equipment and recording related (seems unlikely after 50 years but assuming so would be foolish)
Is it a combination of both? Most likely. But again untested and unsubstantiated.
If its both can it be learnt and the brain rewired? Very likely but only under precise conditions.
The OP posts demonstrate a repeated lack of problem solving this differential. His dilemma is reflected in a polarization in replies. Some like you assume its a neurological problem. In contrast others assume its a stereo and recording issue. The truth is more likely to be both.
Fortunately the OP is very confident in his analytical ability so it should be easy for him to sort this out.