Maybe worth reading "Thinking Fast and Slow." National Science Foundation book of the year, and NYT bestseller. Also very good for understanding how minds work is, "The Righteous Mind."
@jan, I don't form images in my head. And I didn't hear depth in sound reproduction until I got Sound Lab ESL panels. Now I listen to reverb tails intentionally because I know they are important for some people in providing depth cues. https://www.soundlabspeakers.com/
EDIT: Some additional info on speaker placement (post #2): https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=46634
@jan, I don't form images in my head. And I didn't hear depth in sound reproduction until I got Sound Lab ESL panels. Now I listen to reverb tails intentionally because I know they are important for some people in providing depth cues. https://www.soundlabspeakers.com/
EDIT: Some additional info on speaker placement (post #2): https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=46634
Fascinating! When I tell you I bought a new car brand x color y, do you visualize such a car 'in your mind's eye'?
Jan
Jan
Probably not. I don't keep up with new car styling so I wouldn't know what visualize. Maybe if you said it was, for example, Teal color, I might have some vague mental recollection of experiencing that color.
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Attached is the layout of my office where I listen to a lot of music. I sit at the desk in the chair at the point of the triangle created by the speakers. The door behind me is a closet and it is closed. It is a square room which is not a great thing but I assume some kind of stereo image is possible, even it is not optimal. Also a photo of one off the speakers, this is an old photo, so it is not positioned like that, it is located in the drawing.
Attachments
No picture, no color, but I have the concepts of a car and color. I.e. a 2016 Silver TTS and how much fun it is to drive, no pictures, no feeling of acceleration.
Its not just the speakers and the room although they play the most critical role. A jittery dac, a minimal quality Class-D amp, ground loops you don't know about, etc., can all have their effects too. A video monitor next to one speaker can cause problems from reflections and from moving with sound pressure changes. I would suggest to try moving things around a little and see if you can hear any effects from doing that, just keep the speakers aimed at you ears as the only constant. ONLY IF YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT SAFELY FOR A BRIEF TEST, maybe try lifting power grounds on all but one of the reproduction system components to see if any change in sound due to ground loops.
That's how my Technics coaxials represent it, with maybe the dogs closer to 3:30. Successful effects are 'head in a vice' though.
Oddly the LEDR test, while the tonal changes are clear and familiar, fail almost completely. The speakers are far from rear and side walls with nothing between them and the listening seat.
This thread has broken into two tracks, one my brain works differently and I haven't listened a good enough system and/or the systems are not setup correctly. I suggest applying the rules of logic to this. Assign a probability to these statements and weigh it against your theories of what is going on with me.
1. The systems I've listen to are not good enough to present the stereo image. Room, speakers, DAC or amplifiers in that order of effect on reproduction. Even though I started 50 years ago using vinyl (we called them records) have had at least 10 different pairs of speakers over that time.
2. The speakers are not positioned correctly, the room is not the right size or treated correctly. Even thought I have had different systems setup in different rooms. I've listened to other peoples systems and listened in many hifi stores' listening rooms.
3. My proposition that my brain does not create the intended stereo illusion.
Remember that I claim that I have never heard the stereo effect over 50 years across all these variables. Which of the 3 above conclusions is the most likely? Also keep in mind I'm stating I did not get any of the effects, phantom center, imaging, 2D, 3D sound or soundstage. So it is not about the quality of the illusion, it is the lack off illusion. There is a 4 conclusion, that I'm just lying to get some kind of attention, but with the amount of personal detail I have shared I would hope that should be the least likely conclusion.
1. The systems I've listen to are not good enough to present the stereo image. Room, speakers, DAC or amplifiers in that order of effect on reproduction. Even though I started 50 years ago using vinyl (we called them records) have had at least 10 different pairs of speakers over that time.
2. The speakers are not positioned correctly, the room is not the right size or treated correctly. Even thought I have had different systems setup in different rooms. I've listened to other peoples systems and listened in many hifi stores' listening rooms.
3. My proposition that my brain does not create the intended stereo illusion.
Remember that I claim that I have never heard the stereo effect over 50 years across all these variables. Which of the 3 above conclusions is the most likely? Also keep in mind I'm stating I did not get any of the effects, phantom center, imaging, 2D, 3D sound or soundstage. So it is not about the quality of the illusion, it is the lack off illusion. There is a 4 conclusion, that I'm just lying to get some kind of attention, but with the amount of personal detail I have shared I would hope that should be the least likely conclusion.
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In nature ITD has more to do with spatial perception than volume levels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interaural_time_difference
Some people don't hear volume level panning as spatial position information. I didn't until my mid-40s. What changed was I decided I wanted to learn how to mix records. I practiced adjusting volume level panning of recorded tracks in a mix. Eventually I learned how to hear it as position information. That is, I could learn, my brain still had some plasticity which maybe your's doesn't. Despite learning it I still find that good equipment and proper positioning gives the most plausible effect, especially for depth.
Pop music mixes usually rely on volume panning. Symphony hall recordings made with only 2-mics should pick up ITD information. So it can matter what recordings are listened to.
What I suspect is you may be oversimplifying the problem. Part of it is in you and you might be able to fix it or improve that. Part of it is in your system and setup and you might be able to fix it or improve that too. If you refuse to experiment (as many people refuse to do around here) then you may never find out.
Some people don't hear volume level panning as spatial position information. I didn't until my mid-40s. What changed was I decided I wanted to learn how to mix records. I practiced adjusting volume level panning of recorded tracks in a mix. Eventually I learned how to hear it as position information. That is, I could learn, my brain still had some plasticity which maybe your's doesn't. Despite learning it I still find that good equipment and proper positioning gives the most plausible effect, especially for depth.
Pop music mixes usually rely on volume panning. Symphony hall recordings made with only 2-mics should pick up ITD information. So it can matter what recordings are listened to.
What I suspect is you may be oversimplifying the problem. Part of it is in you and you might be able to fix it or improve that. Part of it is in your system and setup and you might be able to fix it or improve that too. If you refuse to experiment (as many people refuse to do around here) then you may never find out.
Doubtful for me. A front centre phantom illusion requires little more than that the sound reaching your ears have near-enough similar frequency response and arrival times. Two car speakers in cardboard boxes should be capable of 'putting something' there, if not the most accurate something.
The couch on the left might have some impact. You could temporarily pull the speakers closer together and forward of the middle stand, listening near field at centre carpet to understand the magnitude.
I'm also willing to bet a discreet 3rd centre speaker fed a mono mix will create the middle phantom for you.
Mark
It is not a refusal to experiment, I have experimenting over 50 years with no results. If it was just about quality I would experiment more, making small adjustments and decide if it improved the quality or degraded the quality of the stereo experience. But if it thee is no change across all the experiments maybe the answer is I simply can't experience the illusion. It has taken a long time for me to realize that I'm wired differently in regards to visualization (mind's eye), and just a week ago it occurred to me that people can't hear a voice when thinking (inner voice) while following another thread about sound stage. This got to me to theorize my inability to hear the stereo illusion my be another aspect of how my mind works. Another interesting that is related that those Magic Eye pictures that were suppose have a 3D picture in them never worked for me.
It is not a refusal to experiment, I have experimenting over 50 years with no results. If it was just about quality I would experiment more, making small adjustments and decide if it improved the quality or degraded the quality of the stereo experience. But if it thee is no change across all the experiments maybe the answer is I simply can't experience the illusion. It has taken a long time for me to realize that I'm wired differently in regards to visualization (mind's eye), and just a week ago it occurred to me that people can't hear a voice when thinking (inner voice) while following another thread about sound stage. This got to me to theorize my inability to hear the stereo illusion my be another aspect of how my mind works. Another interesting that is related that those Magic Eye pictures that were suppose have a 3D picture in them never worked for me.
rdf
There is no couch on the left, it is a desk, four legs and a top, completely open below. I think you understand me, no matter what there should be some stereo presented. I've owned a few Audis with B&O sound systems, one feature was to center the sound on the drive or across the car, I would try both settings and never noticed the sound to move, same with faders, it just is either in front of me or behind me.
There is no couch on the left, it is a desk, four legs and a top, completely open below. I think you understand me, no matter what there should be some stereo presented. I've owned a few Audis with B&O sound systems, one feature was to center the sound on the drive or across the car, I would try both settings and never noticed the sound to move, same with faders, it just is either in front of me or behind me.
Sorry Mark, I wasn't replying/asking you but mtidge. Your post slipped in while I was typing ;-) . So let me re-ask:
@mtidge: Fascinating! When I tell you I bought a new car brand x color y, do you visualize such a car 'in your mind's eye'?
Jan
Did you figure out that if you go to a hi-fi store and you want to hear the imaging of their best speakers, you need to insist they remove all other speakers from the listening room? It may sound drastic, but unpowered speakers act as passive absorbers and re-radiators that reduce and or distort information needed for localization perception. Even dacs have an effect. When I got a better dac the spatial localization of instruments from left to right between the speakers tightened up.
Regarding working on myself instead of the system what I had to do to train myself to hear volume panning as spatial information was to pan only one instrument in the mix, close my eyes, and work on pointing to instrument with my finger. I sometimes had someone else silently adjust the panning so I could practice doing it blind. It helped to turn my head as I listened to help narrow in on location. The learned ability didn't happen all at once, it took some practice to get better.
In another situation later, I found that in order to sort audio opamp recordings in order of distortion by ear I had to again do it blind. I couldn't even know it was file A instead of file B or it knowing that would bias my results and cause failure.
Having shared some of my experiences, maybe we could compare with some of yours?
The actual image the sound engineer built into the recording will be seriously compromised. The further out of alignment the speakers are the closer to just simple left/right it becomes. But the vast majority of the stereo perception lives right around the symmetrical apex. Ime, most people are not aware of the true sweet spot's ability. Not sure to what extent you've measured and adjusted set up but measurements are not enough. Once you've done the best you can with tools, ie: tape measure, level, even laser if you choose, it's then time to fine tune with your ears. The only measurement for which tools are adequate for is vertical adjustment. The speakers must be vertically at the same angle. If you've gone to these lengths to make sure they're as close as possible and then cannot fine tune with your ears, I would then concede the fault is with you.
@jan,
See #65 and the answer is no pictures, ever.
@mark,
When I go to the store I will push them best I can to make a proper setup, the last store left near me is one with listening rooms, not a Best Buy with shelves full of speakers and a speaker selector. At this point I think I have shared my experiences. I will go back over this thread and follow the links and look for the book that you mentioned.
@Disco-Pete,
Should sitting a the apex of equilateral triangle be enough to get a phantom center? If it is then the rest of the fine tuning is to improve the stereo experience.
See #65 and the answer is no pictures, ever.
@mark,
When I go to the store I will push them best I can to make a proper setup, the last store left near me is one with listening rooms, not a Best Buy with shelves full of speakers and a speaker selector. At this point I think I have shared my experiences. I will go back over this thread and follow the links and look for the book that you mentioned.
@Disco-Pete,
Should sitting a the apex of equilateral triangle be enough to get a phantom center? If it is then the rest of the fine tuning is to improve the stereo experience.
That so called "phantom center" is a rhetorical generalization. To put that into perspective, you should hear sound coming from center with a mono recording. But the best effect for that is still correct symmetry. The propagating sound waves from both speakers have to meld into one to make the speakers disappear leaving only the sound they produce. The best analogy I can give is when you put on a pair of glasses, the central dividing apparatus disappears and it appears as one large frame around both eyes. With correct symmetry, the same thing happens as both speakers meld into one large source with directional cues dependent on the skill and tools at hand of the sound engineer.
@mtidge
You say you have a problem with spatial audio recognition from stereo speakers.
There are three likely causes
1. your brain
2. the stereos and music you have heard
3. both
You've been offered advice on how to independently test 1 & 2 . Until you do so in a disciplined and scientifically informed manner you run the risk of being hopelessly confused.
You say you have a problem with spatial audio recognition from stereo speakers.
There are three likely causes
1. your brain
2. the stereos and music you have heard
3. both
You've been offered advice on how to independently test 1 & 2 . Until you do so in a disciplined and scientifically informed manner you run the risk of being hopelessly confused.