anatech said:
I'm workin out the code to create the ITD vs IID graphs. It'll look somewhat similar to a smith chart, with lines of constant IID and ITD. I must admit, the math is getting rather difficult..I may just punt and impliment the graphicals using recursion equations.
House..
Nah, I was at work during the pour. bummer.
All wiring will be out of the floor or walls.
I will be (of course), running wires throughout the house..cat5e, rg-6, #14 speaker wires, tele, anything I can think of.
Been researching lots, as I will be installing radiant heat, baseboards, tiling kitchen floor, AC, wash/dryer, DW, and of course, the requisite wine cooler, 50 bottle..
All that, and a coupla business trips in the near future..lots ta do.
Fun.. Hey, at least I'm not as old as SY
😉 Cheers, John
Hi John,
I was lucky enough to move into a new house 5 yrs ago. I ran CAT3 (phones) and CAT5 (data) to every room. That and speaker wires to the kitchen, family room (surrounds) and master bathroom. Then RG-6u for Sat and video. The builder almost fainted, but I got permission first! The main floor could be done later (harder) but the top floor would have been a real problem if they didn't let me in.
My basement is still unfinished with stacks of unpacked boxes. Need shelving.
-Chris
I was lucky enough to move into a new house 5 yrs ago. I ran CAT3 (phones) and CAT5 (data) to every room. That and speaker wires to the kitchen, family room (surrounds) and master bathroom. Then RG-6u for Sat and video. The builder almost fainted, but I got permission first! The main floor could be done later (harder) but the top floor would have been a real problem if they didn't let me in.
My basement is still unfinished with stacks of unpacked boxes. Need shelving.
-Chris
anatech said:
For now, I think it may be best to try to measure anything, and go from there.
Once some kind of standardization has been established, refinements such as external object influences can be worked through.
I'm honestly not sure there will be a best design IC, as everybody's setup is different.
Measurable proof of haversine and audio field incursion into the ground loop path that contaminates the input would be clear evidence of something that some may have difficulty accepting..that is, that the IC, the PC, and the input bridge/cap set could influence the sound of a system...in a measureable way..neat..
Cheers, John
jneutron said:
Hey, at least I'm not as old as SY
Cheers, John
One measly year. In fact, exactly one measly year.
There are many interactions in a system, especially one where millivolts can easily be amplified to become volts and therefore audible.
My problem with this turn in the discussions is that changing a cable from one to another without changing any other equipment, placement, cable lengths cable routing or grounding systems changes the sound. This is not a ground loop phenominum, not to say that grounding and EMI is not a related question, but the discussion is not about how the sound changes from using for example a shielded cable to an unshielded one.
I have specific expertise in grounding and ground loops as well as RFI and EMI interference. I know the symptoms of ground interaction problems and I am reasonably certain that is not what I am hearing. The cable signatures I hear repeat from one system in one location to another system in a different location. Systems where the ground and EMI environment is totally dis-similar
Also note that people that use balanced cables also report the same kinds of change in sound qualities when they change cables.
IMHO you are pursuing a false trail. 🙂 🙂
My problem with this turn in the discussions is that changing a cable from one to another without changing any other equipment, placement, cable lengths cable routing or grounding systems changes the sound. This is not a ground loop phenominum, not to say that grounding and EMI is not a related question, but the discussion is not about how the sound changes from using for example a shielded cable to an unshielded one.
I have specific expertise in grounding and ground loops as well as RFI and EMI interference. I know the symptoms of ground interaction problems and I am reasonably certain that is not what I am hearing. The cable signatures I hear repeat from one system in one location to another system in a different location. Systems where the ground and EMI environment is totally dis-similar
Also note that people that use balanced cables also report the same kinds of change in sound qualities when they change cables.
IMHO you are pursuing a false trail. 🙂 🙂
And the data supporting your statement is what?hermanv said:
Go back to post # 95, and re-examine the (admittedly crude) drawing.
Notice that one of the items in the denominator of the transfer function is r3, which is the shield resistance. Note also that this drawing shows the coupling of the ground currents, which as an analog engineer, you should appreciate is not the same thing as a common mode voltage. Have you tested any equipment for rejection of shield current across the audio band? Have you measured any? Were you aware of this loop and the coupling?
Did you know that this coupling also exists within the chassis of a solid state amp? Did you know that the differential input pair feedback node is the most sensitive point within an amplifier for the stray high field rate of change garbage that exists within a solid state amp....Did you know that a shielded cable is indeed capable of intercepting voltage when it is seeing a magnetic field with non dipole field harmonics? Even when the geometric centers of the shield and center conductor coincide?
The discussion is currently about the magnetic coupling that exists between amp and source as a result of the IC wire itself, models of interaction of these things, parameters which are included within the model that can affect the interaction, and methods of measuring to verify or refute the accuracy of the model..hermanv said:
As such, simplistic statements of the type "I heard it, it's there, and "it can't be this", have no place in a discussion of models and testing..
Coherent, well explained criticism is welcome..as is the input of people who believe they have observed something which flies in the face of the discussion..
hermanv said:
And your basis for that statement is what? Have you measured the magnetic field environment in any location where you tried a cable?. All amplifiers draw haversines, the level of which is modulated by the amp power output. Have you measured the field intensity of the haversines, or the helical dipole configuration of those fields? Are you saying you know when you have ground loop interactions based only on hum?
It is my intent to introduce actual measurement of the things you are alluding to. I am sick and tired of the "you can't measure it, but it's there..to me, that is not an option, but a cop out..
hermanv said:
Again, look at post #95. I am rather suprised that you did not realize that that drawing specifically details the effect shield currents will have on even balanced inputs. Did you think that amplifier designers incorporate shield current coupling through the chassis and out ground in their design criteria? Do they even know it exists...
hermanv said:
Review the entire thread carefully, specifically what I have posted.
You will find that you do not understand what I am getting at. Perhaps, I am not explaining it well enough??
Have a pleasant weekend, talk to you on monday..
Cheers, John
There is a large body of knowledge within the engineering community about grounds, ground loops and electromagnetic feedback. Grounds and ground loops usually introduce errors of the type that are multiples of 60Hz, a hum , buzz or chopping effect, I have heard these kinds of effects many times and they bear no resembelance to what I hear on cable variations. There is no fault in my making use of 35 years of my own low level analog design expertise in drawing a hypothesis. Electromagnetic feedback between chassis eddies or speaker cable currents are easily discerned becasue moving the interconnect cable while listening will effect the sound, this kind of feedback changes immediately and noticably for even fairly small movements. I have not seen this effect regarding the cable signatures I have heard.jneutron said:
Absolutely.
Of course, what I am unaware of is the relevance to the cable discussion. This effect is small enough that small movements of the wires can make it prominent or dissapear completely, each time I plug in the same cable I get the same sound signature, each time I plug in the other cable I get the other signature. The cables in this case are both twisted quads of around 2 twists per inch, unshielded. The signatures are consistent irrespective of cable dress.
Your discussion is currently about magnetic coupling. Other than some mild support others are not advancing this as necessarily a viable answer. Like me they are willing to listen to any contribution. I said it was my OPINION that you were chasing ghosts, you may not deny me that priviledge
In this case, I have not observed something and the lack of that observation flies in the face of your discussion.
I design amplifiers, I am aware of it. Balanced inputs reduce the shield current effect by an order of magnitude or more depending largely on the open loop frequency gain of the differntial pair and the grounding layout of the input signal run. It would be a rare amplifier designer that did not have to wrestle with this demon at least once in his career.
I understand that I do not know why cables do what they do and that I might be proven wrong about some kind of EMI or RFI feedback. But, years of low level amplifier design, chasing exactly the problem you propose as a cause leads me to believe that in this case, that ain't it. The signature is wrong
You have a pleasant weekend as well..
Hermanv, to me it's beyond question that different cables (= different metals + different dielectrics + different geometries + different terminations + different shielding, if any) impose different signatures on an audio signal, and that those signatures are audible. You won't convince certain people that this proposition might be true. Jneutron has set himself the laudable goal of designing measurements to measure audible differences, if any, which I think is an excellent task. But I'm not convinced we will, within my lifetime, or perhaps ever, have the measuring tools or methods to properly delineate subtle audible differences that distinguish different types of gear, or even different instruments---like what makes a Stradivari a Stradivari.
serengetiplains said:
I completely agree. It is a laudable task and might put an end to the interminable bickering about whether cables sound different.
I was hoping to encourage him to measure cables rather than systems, as I suspect the difference is not terribly systems dependent once a given system has sufficient resolution to reveal the effect.
I do not in any way mean to discourage any approach that leads to understanding. 🙂 🙂
hermanv said:
Yes, might do so, emphasis on might. I've read too much science to think we are anything other than, and perhaps always will be, searching a vast plain with a tiny flashlight, Duracells notwithstanding. Good luck, ey?
Do I understand correctly? This guy Nugent, who touts empirical and "wholistic" practices, is the seller of the cables?
He is as entitled as anyone, I guess, to re-spell holistic... perhaps it's an empirical thing... wholistic looks/sounds better than holistic.
Hmmm... sounds as if he might not be a truely dis-interested [read: objective, credible] third party.
Wow, I just perused the site in greater detail. $1500 holophonic power cords. Why didn't he follow suit and call them wholophonic?
Wish we could get this wiz to rewire to power grid for us. We could all pay $82/kWh for electricity.
C'mon now
He is as entitled as anyone, I guess, to re-spell holistic... perhaps it's an empirical thing... wholistic looks/sounds better than holistic.
Hmmm... sounds as if he might not be a truely dis-interested [read: objective, credible] third party.
Wow, I just perused the site in greater detail. $1500 holophonic power cords. Why didn't he follow suit and call them wholophonic?
Wish we could get this wiz to rewire to power grid for us. We could all pay $82/kWh for electricity.
C'mon now
🙂
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lineup said:
Dear oh dear .....oh well, things are only for sale if there's customers.... dear oh dear.
poobah said:
Keeping things small and manageable, ey Poobah? Are you a linguist, too? The term "holism" is coined from a Latin term from which our word "whole" arises, but that's beside the point that "wholism" is a proper term in our language such that "wholophonic" is a proper turn of language.
But j'digress. A truly disinterested person would be, I guess, someone with no relevant experience?
Yes, zero-cost knowledge and stereos for all. It's all so simple. Why can't they see this?
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