Interconnect cables! Lies and myths!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jump to Latest
#383
Guys.

I'm kinda hoping to keep this thread open. I can see the closed mind/closed ears stuff leading the wrong way..and would prefer to focus on topic.

The day I believe in DBT's as being the end all, is the day we understand the adaptation behaviour of human hearing. If the localization cues are altered, how long does it take for the human brain to adapt to the altered perceptions..

Think about those 3-d pictures. By de-coupling the eye's lens adjustment from the eye's stereoscopic focal point, we can alter our visual perception to see those 3-d pictures. But it takes a little time to do so. And, once you look away, it takes a little time to go normal.

Why would we expect the ears to be any different?? From my perspective I consider the ears and localization to be a measuring tool which has a time constant associated with any changes to the cue relationships. And I do not know how long it takes to adjust to the changes..

DBT's are not going to work for localization cues and instant changes to them. So it is best not to invoke them in this thread.

It's been a week. Anybody measure their interchassis voltages? Or even, their ground to ground voltages (different outlets)?

Cheers, John
 
#384
serengetiplains said:


Given your second sentence, you might want to reconsider "know" and "should" in your first.
Click to expand...
As I suspected, I did not write my intent correctly..or, shall I say, clearly enough..there is a term for the type of sentence I used, but I am too dumb to remember that term, and I should have put quotes around the work "know"....like that...

From an engineering pov, when specifications have been met, all units are identical. The goal of the engineer is to make sure those specs are good enough, and met.

The caveat to that assertion is....do the specifications describe sufficiently the characteristics which are important.

My intent was to say, the specifications used to describe an amplifier are inadequate to cover the science of localization..

Cheers, John
 
#387
Measurements

Measuring tire pressure or spring rates on a car will reveal some insight about cornering but it won't begin to tell you how a car will handle.

Indy teams spend literally millions on suspensions, in the end the driver says, it feels this way or it feels that way and it is his perception that is used for final adjustments or even re-design.

Measurements are but a tool, they do not even beging to describe every aspect of a devices behavior. All amplifiers that measure the same do NOT sound the same. The measurements are but a tiny sub set of all possible behaviors of an amplifier.

Years ago when op-amps first became popular it was discovered that measurements of performance had little or no correlation to how any given op-amp would sound when used in an audio circuit. In most modern op-amps the closed loop performance differences of for example distortion are so small that most test equipment would be hard pressed to show them, yet op-amps to this day sound quite different from each other.

Here is but one example:
http://www.tangentsoft.net/audio/opamps.html
 
#388
Re: Measurements

hermanv said:
Measurements are but a tool, they do not even beging to describe every aspect of a devices behavior. All amplifiers that measure the same do NOT sound the same. The measurements are but a tiny sub set of all possible behaviors of an amplifier.
Click to expand...

Nobody has measured an amplifier for localization cues.

The measurement is only as good as the science behind the measurement.

The science of audibility is still in it's infancy. That will eventually change.

Cheers, John
 
#392
poobah said:
hermanv... the link just leads to some subjective op-amp testing?
Click to expand...

Now I just said earlier that measurements did NOT provide support for why op-amps sound different and now you demand a link that does provide support for how measurements show op-amps sound different - does this actually make sense to you?

Maybe I'm just too dense; for me music is a completely subjective experience. For those of you who, for example, count the number of notes, it's probably true that all amplifiers and cables provide identical results.

Come on people this is for reproducing music, music with emotional impact, it's art. I suppose some people might actually wear sunglasses while looking at the Louvre's art collection, maybe those 3D ones with one red lens and one blue.
 
#394
Excuse me,

Isn´t this a DIY FORUM?

Why do people keep using the existence of $$$ cables as argument here?

Just take one or two popular DIY designs and make your own so that we know if you´re def or just plain stubborn.

If a manufacturer is charging the earth and the moon for the very same design is irrelevant in this forum.
 
#396
PauSim said:
Isn´t this a DIY FORUM?.......... ...........Just take one or two popular DIY designs and make your own so that we know if you´re def or just plain stubborn.
Click to expand...

To me cables sound different, (so not deaf) but I am stubborn 😀

When I have tried this (make your own) I ended up with decent cables, but the cables were not as good as the ones that seem to cause all the ruckus because they are priced sky high.

There are really two threads in most of these cable wars; 1. cable prices are a rip off, snake oil, etc etc. 2. Besides none of them sound different anyway.

A Ferrari costs more than a Ford Focus, they both use about the same amount of metal, is the Ferrari a rip off? Is there a performance difference?
 
#398
Sir Trefor said:

On the subject of speaker cables I forward you to Roger Russell's website , former engineer for McIntosh(loudspeakr division, no less), who makes it quite clear that speaker wire resistance is the main factor that affects it's performance. According to him, when he worked at McIntosh they were using zip cord as speaker wire. He also talks about Gordon Gow(former president of McIntosh Laboratories), who proved there is no difference between high-dollar speaker wire and AC lamp cord.

I use 15 AWG magnet wire; mainly because I can get it for free
Click to expand...
sagarverma said:

very good and informative.
Click to expand...




Some lines from Roger Russell website.
Remarkable with high-end amplifier constructing company wanting to use
only well dimensioned zip cord of ordinary type at shows.
😉
And this when most of us agree that speaker cables
can possibly effect signal more than interconnects.
The Truth about Speaker Wire
by Roger Russell

Despite the effectiveness of Gordon's cable demonstration and the truth about speaker wire, people visiting the McIntosh room at the shows, who had not experienced the cable demonstration, were disturbed that we were using ordinary heavy zip cord instead of one of the popular brands of speaker wire. Instead of listening to the McIntosh speakers and electronics, they recalled "bad" things they had been told about "common" speaker wire and this promoted questions about the "inferior" wire being used. When we changed the wire to a popular brand of wire, customers were happy with the setup, and directed their attention to the McIntosh equipment.

The demand for high quality speaker wire was increasing and appeared to be a new marketing area for several companies. McIntosh did not make or sell speaker wire. The solution seemed very obvious--rather than spend time and effort to create negative sales for McIntosh dealers who were beginning to sell speaker wire, it seemed best to encourage the speaker owner/customer to consult with the dealer about what speaker wire to use. Consequently, I no longer recommended the kind of wire or wire sizes in the speaker manuals.

By 1988, McIntosh no longer supplied audio interconnects with the electronics. Again, many kinds of special audio cables were available to the customer/owner. The dealer could also be consulted about what cables to use.

I credit the success of the speaker wire industry to their expert sales and marketing ability.
However, it is my experience that ordinary copper wire, as long as it's heavy enough,
is just as good as name brands.

Looking at this from a different perspective, there will always be those who will want expensive wire, not because there is an audible difference, but because they may value pride of ownership and prestige in a similar way to that of owning a Tiffany lamp or a Rolex watch.
Click to expand...
 
#399
To me, if the market is loaded with overpriced cables or not is no excuse in this or in any other thread in this forum. There are those places where people discuss about the "$x000 price barriers "and whose main tool is their bank account that could benefit by warning them about BS.

Everybody can make a pair of decent interconnects and speaker cables with pocket-money parts and skill with a soldering iron.

Here, to advice newbies they better use lampcord is to send them in the wrong direction, desillusioning about the joy and virtues of Audio DIY, as cables (along with other non-intrusive system improvements like room treatment and speaker stands) are a good place to start.

All this IMMV of course...
 
#400
hermanv said:

When I have tried this (make your own) I ended up with decent cables, but the cables were not as good as the ones that seem to cause all the ruckus because they are priced sky high.
Click to expand...

I guess everyone experiences the same in the beginning. Very good sounding cables are not as easy to make as we learned in the DIY sites, but it´s not a dark cience either. So, that shouldn´t stop you from getting on.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom