Hi Ed,
You're talking about the mix now. There is such a thing as a treble control. In the end, I don't listen to bad mixes 'cause they don't sound very good! lol!
Honestly, a speaker needs to reproduce as flat as reasonably possible. That is radiated energy into the room. Good speakers have good radiation patterns. Bad ones don't. I can't say I've had any problems with good speakers no matter the technology. I will say some classic horn speakers can sound awful, cone tweeters aren't normally something you want to hear either.
-Chris
You're talking about the mix now. There is such a thing as a treble control. In the end, I don't listen to bad mixes 'cause they don't sound very good! lol!
Honestly, a speaker needs to reproduce as flat as reasonably possible. That is radiated energy into the room. Good speakers have good radiation patterns. Bad ones don't. I can't say I've had any problems with good speakers no matter the technology. I will say some classic horn speakers can sound awful, cone tweeters aren't normally something you want to hear either.
-Chris
Chris - Yes, the recording problems are due to mixing and EQ. The results would be better if the recording engineers had just plugged in two microphones and pressed "record".
Box speakers have no high-frequency output to the rear. That makes them forgiving of tipped-up treble, but they can never sound real. I will take the realism of a dipole even if it means tossing out poorly-recorded music.
Ed
Box speakers have no high-frequency output to the rear. That makes them forgiving of tipped-up treble, but they can never sound real. I will take the realism of a dipole even if it means tossing out poorly-recorded music.
Ed
Well ... you need to limit dynamic range. Often the mics don't capture the event the way you hear it either. I've done a lot of live sound. A Symphony is balanced from endless practice between the musicians. With other music, each instrument is recorded with the highest signal to noise ratio. Effects may be added to an instrument since they are mostly electronic anyway. Not good or bad, it's "the sound" they are going for. Once they have the instrument sounding the way they want it, they balance the instruments and vocals.
lol!
Ed. Bose.
Once you begin bouncing mids and highs from the speakers, the room really gets into the picture. What is right?
From experience, the very most life-like speakers I have ever heard on a wide variety of material are the Klipsch Jubilee speakers. Two huge tractrix horns, ported horn loaded woofers. Awesome. If you ever get a chance to hear a set even halfway decently set up, you'll be impressed. Very life-like, they get everything right. They arrive on four skids, be forewarned.
lol!
Ed. Bose.
Once you begin bouncing mids and highs from the speakers, the room really gets into the picture. What is right?
From experience, the very most life-like speakers I have ever heard on a wide variety of material are the Klipsch Jubilee speakers. Two huge tractrix horns, ported horn loaded woofers. Awesome. If you ever get a chance to hear a set even halfway decently set up, you'll be impressed. Very life-like, they get everything right. They arrive on four skids, be forewarned.
The reflected sound from the room not matching the direct sound from the speaker is the dead giveaway that one is listening to a speaker. Dipoles disappear on good recordings because the direct and reflected sounds are largely the same.anatech said:
Really the only thing that the dipole gives up is the bottom octave. ETA: I am not interested in high SPL.
Ed
Hi Ed,
The phase / time delay from bounced rear reflected sound is undefined. Probably varies with frequency and room position too. Various surfaces would reflect differently. So many variables ... what the heck is correct? I know many folks with dipoles spend high amounts of time positioning the speakers in relation to their listening position. They are never happy it seems.
Let's call it an effect, and once you have it set up the way you like it, then great. As for the live event, you have sound bouncing all over depending on your position and the crowd around you (even politely seated). There is nothing to serve as "the correct sound". If it sounds live and balanced, then fantastic. YOu don't have a standard room even, that would seem to be the only way to get speakers to sound right that bounce energy intentionally.
Don't get me wrong. I am not arguing any system is better than another.
The phase / time delay from bounced rear reflected sound is undefined. Probably varies with frequency and room position too. Various surfaces would reflect differently. So many variables ... what the heck is correct? I know many folks with dipoles spend high amounts of time positioning the speakers in relation to their listening position. They are never happy it seems.
Let's call it an effect, and once you have it set up the way you like it, then great. As for the live event, you have sound bouncing all over depending on your position and the crowd around you (even politely seated). There is nothing to serve as "the correct sound". If it sounds live and balanced, then fantastic. YOu don't have a standard room even, that would seem to be the only way to get speakers to sound right that bounce energy intentionally.
Don't get me wrong. I am not arguing any system is better than another.
Chris - Radiating high frequencies only to the front is also an effect. I believe that radiating sound more uniformly has merit. Some speakers in the 1970s tried to do that. Only Magnepan, Martin-Logan, and a few others do that today.
Ed
Ed
Hi Ed,
No arguments there. I saw just about every speaker type and design from the 1970s on.
You can argue it either way to be honest. I'm not interested in that, just good sound.
No arguments there. I saw just about every speaker type and design from the 1970s on.
You can argue it either way to be honest. I'm not interested in that, just good sound.
Actually it's not so simple... RT applies to large halls primarily, and varies per frequency. REW softwre can make many different analyses of decay time, RT is just a gross indicator.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/forums/room-acoustics-mods.169/
Dipole speaker can be considered as an effect device. Practically all recordings are intended to be listened with direct radiators.
Just like headphones or classA amplifiers with high distortion, some people prefer them in certain conditions.
Any way you like it, do it in best way
Just like headphones or classA amplifiers with high distortion, some people prefer them in certain conditions.
Any way you like it, do it in best way
Remember……..when you write and publish something….it’s eternal. This might be the most ridiculous thing I've read all week.
And this is why Spatial Audio is gaining ground so quickly. The stereo triangle is dead…..it just doesn’t know it yet…..much like the turntable and vinyl……modern day zombies of the hifi apocalypse.
As an engineer, I’ve been fortunate to have been invited to some Spatial Audio demos in rooms where the content was natively mastered for 7.2.4 channels and let me tell ya, the room and the music are so analogous it’s chilling. Now of course we’re talking about the thing being done correctly…..proper placement of all channels and active bass management. This isn’t a reality for a lot of folks either due to the complexity of it or the comparative ease of stereo.
Hi mayhem13,
You have hit the nail on the head. Market acceptance. One factor is total cost, the other is how intrusive the equipment might be.
The stereo triangle is probably going to remain with us for a very long time. A number of factors ensure this. One ugly truth is that the way equipment is manufactured today (limited life time, poor performance) for popular goods (mass market), most can maybe afford a good quality stereo system. A good quality, robust Spatial audio system will remain out of reach.
Equipment geared to the average person reached its zenith in the late 1970s and early to mid 1980s when performance and endurance were key marketing factors. A few companies market equipment with these traits, but they are not common. Much of high end suffers from poor design and reliability - but a high price tag and great story. In other words, high priced junk that might look pretty.
I will take a very good stereo over whatever type of immersive sound system I can imagine today with reasonable pricing. It just sounds better and will remain operational for decades. I'll get behind a well designed, robust (repairable) new system that delivers real value. That does not mean cheap, just that it is really worth what you pay for it.
-Chris
You have hit the nail on the head. Market acceptance. One factor is total cost, the other is how intrusive the equipment might be.
The stereo triangle is probably going to remain with us for a very long time. A number of factors ensure this. One ugly truth is that the way equipment is manufactured today (limited life time, poor performance) for popular goods (mass market), most can maybe afford a good quality stereo system. A good quality, robust Spatial audio system will remain out of reach.
Equipment geared to the average person reached its zenith in the late 1970s and early to mid 1980s when performance and endurance were key marketing factors. A few companies market equipment with these traits, but they are not common. Much of high end suffers from poor design and reliability - but a high price tag and great story. In other words, high priced junk that might look pretty.
I will take a very good stereo over whatever type of immersive sound system I can imagine today with reasonable pricing. It just sounds better and will remain operational for decades. I'll get behind a well designed, robust (repairable) new system that delivers real value. That does not mean cheap, just that it is really worth what you pay for it.
-Chris
I Iive in the Netherlands where we have small living rooms. Now I really do love horns, but because of the listening distance between approx 2,5 to 2,9meter a synergy horn is the only option. (When imaging is important..)
But fullrange drivers can also sound great and have 100db+ efficiency.
We found adding a supertweeter to a Fyne Vintage 12 did not hurt the qualities true pointsource has.
But fullrange drivers don’t have the directivity and if I’m correct that is needed for added clarity and micro details? Hearing the recording ambience..
So I could add without harm a supertweeter to both a synergy horn or a typical singledriver speaker.
What would you guys recommend or perhaps tell pros and cons?
Sound preferences:
-naturalness and clam
-three dimensional imaging, fleshed out
-tonality, harmonics, textures
-dynamics (both)
-clarity
Less important:
-bass
-neutrality