Of course there are issues on both sides. Pro audio horns and compression drivers and even the mid-woofers are not designed for typical home stereo use though. Nor do they have the fine level of quality control of high end drivers and while price is a reflection of quality it doesn't mean that it will be a better driver for you if it has a 5" voice coil and 4000w power handling and you have a 150W class D amp.
I would call this a high end pro audio woofer that has been optimised for typical home stereo use:
Scan-Speak Ellipticor 38WE/8582T00 15" Woofer
Hopefully they have a go at designing horns and compression drivers next...
"Pro audio horns and compression drivers and even the mid-woofers are not designed for typical home stereo use though."
Even if not specifically designed for home audio, there are models that are suitable for that task easily.
Even if not specifically designed for home audio, there are models that are suitable for that task easily.
No, not all pro audio is horn loaded my friend...
Quested Q212d/dn Active - Single - Vintage King
Barefoot Sound MiniMain12 4-Way Active Studio Monitor - Pair - Vintage King
Woah. A lot has transpired on these pages. So to address some things.
Horns ... If there was a kit speaker similar to a Forte IV specs with better sound, I'd have purchased it.
I have decided to go with the suggested Aurum Cantus G1 ribbon driver. I'm trying to decide on a 8 or 10" midrange. And I'll use the Kappalites for bass. Like using a good 15" imo. I've already built and own these. They kick serious butt. They hit hard enough to make me blink, and almost take my breath ... good enough.
Horns ... If there was a kit speaker similar to a Forte IV specs with better sound, I'd have purchased it.
I have decided to go with the suggested Aurum Cantus G1 ribbon driver. I'm trying to decide on a 8 or 10" midrange. And I'll use the Kappalites for bass. Like using a good 15" imo. I've already built and own these. They kick serious butt. They hit hard enough to make me blink, and almost take my breath ... good enough.
Why such huge midrange with radically different polar response than the tweeter? I know you said you sit close and (somehow) don't hear the room, but that just begs the question, why a 3-way with such large drivers when you sit so close?
At that price, I hope they never build another one!
I reached for my wallet just to check, and now I'm in a wheelchair!
Dynamics even at lower volumes.
This is what I have not explained well enough... I am not wanting to listen at 115db. Just the ability to do so if I do choose to, and have it without compression.
I am after a "magic" effect I have noticed with high efficiency, very dynamic speakers. The ability to play at low levels and sound like they are playing loudly.
Then when you turn them up a bit, they are very visceral.
if the dynamic is the time a driver is moving from the lowest decibel to the next highest decibel in the playback, I'm not sure there is a faster, so a more dynamic driver between two drivers of a different size. The bigger will make vibrate more air moleculs though. To reach the spl level of the higher sized driver, the littlier driver will have to move faster to reach the exursion curse needed to play at iso spl than the bigger one, that's all !
So if it gives different result it is not in dynamic -but of course if the amp of the littlier driver can provides the needed power and the littlier driver not compressed by long term thermal compression in the voice coil.
What you like is maybe less cone break-ups or a different way to deal with micro vs macro dynamic behavior ? Or the life of PA driver that are maybe more njoyable because more lively (understand less linear) ?
So if it gives different result it is not in dynamic -but of course if the amp of the littlier driver can provides the needed power and the littlier driver not compressed by long term thermal compression in the voice coil.
What you like is maybe less cone break-ups or a different way to deal with micro vs macro dynamic behavior ? Or the life of PA driver that are maybe more njoyable because more lively (understand less linear) ?
Dynamics should not be about sounding fast. The best dynamics sound exactly natural, quiet or loud, and you cannot tell how one piece of music will sound just by listening to another piece of music on them. If the music sounds not dynamic then they will sound not dynamic.
I am afraid AC G1 can be hardly crossed over as low as 2kHz, and for 8-10" you will want crossover even lower.
Why not Viawave GRT-145W? This one is built for Fc low crossovers, and has WG.
GRT-145W-8
Why not Viawave GRT-145W? This one is built for Fc low crossovers, and has WG.
GRT-145W-8
I've used G1 crossed @ 2600hz 2nd order Butterworth with satisfactory result in a three-way speaker with 8" midbass/midrange Faital Pro 8PR155 (180hz-2600hz) and 8Ohm Faital Pro 15PR400 15" woofer below 180hz.
I've also used two AST2560 in parallel with final impedance of 2.8ohms on the same speaker with very very good result. Just everyone seems to love how this speaker sounds.
I've also used two AST2560 in parallel with final impedance of 2.8ohms on the same speaker with very very good result. Just everyone seems to love how this speaker sounds.
Attachments
Compression stands in the way of dynamics. Most bare driver designs will do 105dB or somewhat more while playing with relatively low linear distortion. As coils/ribbons heat up and/or they reach the limits of the linear magnetic field, the trouble begins. All this is rather predictable or has been measured. It’s a balancing act of picking the right crossovers for maintaining a good directivity and meanwhile distribute the power carefully across the drivers.
So if you want dynamics above -say- 105dB, such things will come into play. Picking drivers is only the first step. And you still didn’t give the clue about how you will get your design further than the basic ingredients.
So if you want dynamics above -say- 105dB, such things will come into play. Picking drivers is only the first step. And you still didn’t give the clue about how you will get your design further than the basic ingredients.
We could go in circles for weeks. I really do not know of any other way I can put it than I did.
If the reader has not had, or just does not "get", the difference in the way Pro drivers, even Klipsch Heritage speakers excite a room differently, then I am not sure how to proceed.
When you hear the speakers I heard 3 weeks ago for example .. the Forte IV, the effortless dynamics and intensity at volume was amazing. When played low in the background, you couldn't concentrate. The music would drag you in as if it were played louder.
Yet when I sat to critically listen, I heard things I wish were better. Highs could be improved ... Bass could be fuller ... and it was too "closed in" sounding.
So I went looking for the positive traits I got from Pro drivers and high efficiency, with the improvements I desire. That is why I landed here on this forum.
I already have better lows at 95.5db. I think the tiny horn on the Forte may have been why I wasn't wild about the highs. So I can go with the G1. I just need the mid drivers to be decided.
If the reader has not had, or just does not "get", the difference in the way Pro drivers, even Klipsch Heritage speakers excite a room differently, then I am not sure how to proceed.
When you hear the speakers I heard 3 weeks ago for example .. the Forte IV, the effortless dynamics and intensity at volume was amazing. When played low in the background, you couldn't concentrate. The music would drag you in as if it were played louder.
Yet when I sat to critically listen, I heard things I wish were better. Highs could be improved ... Bass could be fuller ... and it was too "closed in" sounding.
So I went looking for the positive traits I got from Pro drivers and high efficiency, with the improvements I desire. That is why I landed here on this forum.
I already have better lows at 95.5db. I think the tiny horn on the Forte may have been why I wasn't wild about the highs. So I can go with the G1. I just need the mid drivers to be decided.
OK, I get it. I do not know what I am doing. I've known that since the start.
I have not been handed the perfect speaker "plans" as a gift. So I am doing the very best I can to learn. I can't tell if you are trying to be helpful or condescending.
I was at this point ..about 25 years ago. 😀
Most of what's preferred here is 70-400 Hz - that startling dynamic presentation. As you go higher in freq. this tapers off IMO, and can often sound a bit "zippy" with certain compression driver/horn implementations at much higher freq.s.
Of course the real problem is that 70-400 Hz in a passive design - you typically p!$$ away a lot of power in this region because of baffle-step loss.
IF I was desiring a higher eff. passive design it would probably have 2 (wired in parallel) 16 ohm 12PR320s. In a good design you should be able to achieve as much as 99 db at 150 Hz with baffle-step compensation.
From there it's a matter of choosing your midrange(s) & tweeter combo.
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Yeah Scott basically what I said before. Parallel up the bass drivers in the OSMC and you'll get in the ball park of the sensitivity flaxxer wants. With two 12" Pro drivers in parallel you'll hit the desired sensitivity target and then it's a case of which 12" driver to give you the sensitivity, box size and bass extension that you want.
Flaxxer. If you use a large midrange driver then you're going to need to use a waveguide loaded tweeter, or compression driver, to get a good directivity match. Both of these make the distance between the midrange and the tweeter pretty large. This is not what you want for listening at the distances you're talking about.
If you use 12" pro bass drivers they'll go up to 300-500Hz, without much trouble, and you can use a high sensitivity 6" midrange driver. Use a suitable tweeter in a waveguide and you're all set. I don't see any of the the typical ribbons being a good idea for this except the Viawave GRT-145W. There are quite a few pro drivers out there in the 6" format that should do what you want. In fact B&Ws FST in the 800 series would do that as it's high sensitivity with very low distortion.
I mean if you want to use big midrange drivers at short listening distances you could use a coaxial.
Flaxxer. If you use a large midrange driver then you're going to need to use a waveguide loaded tweeter, or compression driver, to get a good directivity match. Both of these make the distance between the midrange and the tweeter pretty large. This is not what you want for listening at the distances you're talking about.
If you use 12" pro bass drivers they'll go up to 300-500Hz, without much trouble, and you can use a high sensitivity 6" midrange driver. Use a suitable tweeter in a waveguide and you're all set. I don't see any of the the typical ribbons being a good idea for this except the Viawave GRT-145W. There are quite a few pro drivers out there in the 6" format that should do what you want. In fact B&Ws FST in the 800 series would do that as it's high sensitivity with very low distortion.
I mean if you want to use big midrange drivers at short listening distances you could use a coaxial.
sorry my english
I didn't say dynamic should sound fast. I tried to explain the behavior of what dynamic is for two drivers of a different size cause people often say the bigger drivers are more dynamic but which has nothing to see with the size.
The dynamic is just the difference between two spl levels in a time window than a driver must respect to be dynamically accurate if it is in the recording.
But to reach the higher spl level if we compare 2 drivers of a different size, then the littlier sized driver will have more exursion than the bigger driver. Understand bigger exursion = bigger delay at iso speed. To reach the same spl peak in the acurate time windows of the reccorded event, the littlier driver will be faster than the bigger : understand to reach the same spl level in the acurate time delay of the dynamic event.
the little driver will move faster than the bigger but the sound will be the same for the listener who will hear the same spl level difference in the same time windows given by the reccording whatever the driver. It's not faster for the listener.
Dynamic should not be natural or fast, or unnatural, or light, heavy ! Dynamic is just the difference between two spl level in a time window (tipycally a note attack where the spl level increase between the beginning of the attack and the peak of this attack and is given by the recording. It has nothing to see with the size of the driver, it is just sometimes little drivers have not watts enough for the job asked or suffer compression : thermal or because of their excursion limit in relation to the average spl level in the room. Dynamic has just to be playbacked as it is in the recording, if not then it is not accurate, so unnatural if you prefer this word.
Just what I wanted to say about big driver and the automatic word dynamic what are attributed to them. 🙁
hope my words are clearer and of course the explain is accurate 😱
I didn't say dynamic should sound fast. I tried to explain the behavior of what dynamic is for two drivers of a different size cause people often say the bigger drivers are more dynamic but which has nothing to see with the size.
The dynamic is just the difference between two spl levels in a time window than a driver must respect to be dynamically accurate if it is in the recording.
But to reach the higher spl level if we compare 2 drivers of a different size, then the littlier sized driver will have more exursion than the bigger driver. Understand bigger exursion = bigger delay at iso speed. To reach the same spl peak in the acurate time windows of the reccorded event, the littlier driver will be faster than the bigger : understand to reach the same spl level in the acurate time delay of the dynamic event.
the little driver will move faster than the bigger but the sound will be the same for the listener who will hear the same spl level difference in the same time windows given by the reccording whatever the driver. It's not faster for the listener.
Dynamic should not be natural or fast, or unnatural, or light, heavy ! Dynamic is just the difference between two spl level in a time window (tipycally a note attack where the spl level increase between the beginning of the attack and the peak of this attack and is given by the recording. It has nothing to see with the size of the driver, it is just sometimes little drivers have not watts enough for the job asked or suffer compression : thermal or because of their excursion limit in relation to the average spl level in the room. Dynamic has just to be playbacked as it is in the recording, if not then it is not accurate, so unnatural if you prefer this word.
Just what I wanted to say about big driver and the automatic word dynamic what are attributed to them. 🙁
hope my words are clearer and of course the explain is accurate 😱
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Yes diyiggy, this is a challenging topic. When someone says "effortless", you can know effortless alone.. and you can know dynamics. I don't like to say much about how it feels because others associate complicated feelings with the word dynamics, when it should really be a simple thing.
You can do it right with pro drivers, but what you describe here are problems. These can either be design issues or room and setup issues. You have heard of people building OS waveguides to do their treble properly? These can also sound wrong if you don't set up your speaker properly... you take control of the whole situation.
I really like the design of Dave123's speakers above. Very close to what my mind has been thinking. I found it kind of ironic that I already have a pair of AST2560's new in the box, on my shelf. I'm only another pair of them away, along with the 8PR155s and a miracle to learn enough to design xovers for them, lol!
Hypex may be a good solution after all. It would keep the sensitivity around 95.5 db as well. Still a huge learning curve to make them sound good I know. My woodworker twitch gets going when I look at the side firing woofers, and hexagonal woofer!
@Fifth element ... I could go with a 6" mid, but I like the Faital Pro 8PR155's measurements and specifications quite a bit. I can see it pairing well with the 3012LF, with regards to xover points and sensitivity. After looking at the 15" Faital woofers, I wonder if my 3012's can match them, in a 3cu ft box that is ...
BTW, one of favorite all time movies.
Hypex may be a good solution after all. It would keep the sensitivity around 95.5 db as well. Still a huge learning curve to make them sound good I know. My woodworker twitch gets going when I look at the side firing woofers, and hexagonal woofer!
@Fifth element ... I could go with a 6" mid, but I like the Faital Pro 8PR155's measurements and specifications quite a bit. I can see it pairing well with the 3012LF, with regards to xover points and sensitivity. After looking at the 15" Faital woofers, I wonder if my 3012's can match them, in a 3cu ft box that is ...
BTW, one of favorite all time movies.