I'm not completely done building the sub, but it's together enough that I could take it for a test run. My goal was to get a do-it-all sub with extension down to <20Hz without sacrificing sq and punch for my computer system. I don't crank it up that much, so 100dB would be more than plenty loud for me. I settled on a Dayton Audio rss265hf 4-ohm as my woofer based on good specs and reviews.
My box is built with 3/4" MDF with outside dimensions of 16"W x 24.5"H x 20"L. Gross internal volume is calculated to be 3.47 ft^3. Net volume (gross minus driver, port, and bracing) comes out to 2.5 ft^3.
The port is 1.5"H x 14.5"W x 33.5"L for a tuning of 25Hz and max port velocity of 20 m/s at 22.5Hz.
It's powered my an iNuke 1,000 DSP in bridged mode.
I broke in the driver in free air a little bit, but nothing super extensive. Mostly just played a couple albums as I was working.
I got it all hooked up last night to take it for a test spin and was completely underwhelmed. It has pretty much no punch at all; does not sound huge; goes relatively deep, but generally sounds more 'wheezy' than 'authoritative' if that makes sense (not port whistle or air leaks); does not go anywhere near the 110dB WinISD models. Heck, I doubt I'm even hitting 90dB with the driver almost bottoming out and dang near clipping my iNuke 1,000. I've read reviews where people are blown away with this driver in essentially the same volume box, but that's definitely not my case at all. I'm scratching my head to figure out where I went wrong. I CADed and modeled it all up proper, made good and sure everything was sealed up with no air leaks, basically did everything I knew to engineer it correctly. I just don't know where I went wrong. 😕😕😕 Is there such a thing as making a port too big? That's about all I can possibly come up with regarding the box.
Here are some quick picks for reference if the visuals help:
Here's a CAD model. I don't have a cutaway view of the actual box, but it's basically identical to the model as I made my cut list from my CAD model and made the baffle on my CNC machine (it's a double baffle btw).
WinISP shows a flat 110dB down to 25Hz and an F3 at 23Hz. Ain't no way in he** it's playing anything near that loud - even while bottoming the driver.
I generally had a somewhat similar experience after I built a sealed box using an Infinity Reference 1262w driver. It was very underwhelming for the specs in a down-firing configuration and did not feel as 'authoritative' as I would expect from a fairly beefy 12". I'm almost starting to wonder if my iNuke is a pos...? I know Behringer has a poor reputation with speakers, but I thought their electronics had a decent reputation.
Pro tips would be appreciated!
My box is built with 3/4" MDF with outside dimensions of 16"W x 24.5"H x 20"L. Gross internal volume is calculated to be 3.47 ft^3. Net volume (gross minus driver, port, and bracing) comes out to 2.5 ft^3.
The port is 1.5"H x 14.5"W x 33.5"L for a tuning of 25Hz and max port velocity of 20 m/s at 22.5Hz.
It's powered my an iNuke 1,000 DSP in bridged mode.
I broke in the driver in free air a little bit, but nothing super extensive. Mostly just played a couple albums as I was working.
I got it all hooked up last night to take it for a test spin and was completely underwhelmed. It has pretty much no punch at all; does not sound huge; goes relatively deep, but generally sounds more 'wheezy' than 'authoritative' if that makes sense (not port whistle or air leaks); does not go anywhere near the 110dB WinISD models. Heck, I doubt I'm even hitting 90dB with the driver almost bottoming out and dang near clipping my iNuke 1,000. I've read reviews where people are blown away with this driver in essentially the same volume box, but that's definitely not my case at all. I'm scratching my head to figure out where I went wrong. I CADed and modeled it all up proper, made good and sure everything was sealed up with no air leaks, basically did everything I knew to engineer it correctly. I just don't know where I went wrong. 😕😕😕 Is there such a thing as making a port too big? That's about all I can possibly come up with regarding the box.
Here are some quick picks for reference if the visuals help:
Here's a CAD model. I don't have a cutaway view of the actual box, but it's basically identical to the model as I made my cut list from my CAD model and made the baffle on my CNC machine (it's a double baffle btw).
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
WinISP shows a flat 110dB down to 25Hz and an F3 at 23Hz. Ain't no way in he** it's playing anything near that loud - even while bottoming the driver.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I generally had a somewhat similar experience after I built a sealed box using an Infinity Reference 1262w driver. It was very underwhelming for the specs in a down-firing configuration and did not feel as 'authoritative' as I would expect from a fairly beefy 12". I'm almost starting to wonder if my iNuke is a pos...? I know Behringer has a poor reputation with speakers, but I thought their electronics had a decent reputation.
Pro tips would be appreciated!
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Are you able to take measurements? Ie. have a mic and REW? Did you set a high pass filter? It may need EQ, it may not be in the right spot in your room. Did you line the interior with anything?
I do have a mic and REW, but I'm not completely convinced my calibration file is correct. I'm fine with dropping some EQ on it, but there is absolutely no way anything near 110dB is coming out of that thing. I'm not joking when I say my 8" cheapo Sony sub goes significantly louder.
I lined the box with some egg foam stuff. Not ideal, I know, but better than nothing.
I lined the box with some egg foam stuff. Not ideal, I know, but better than nothing.
Measurements first of course, but since this is the second sub that failed to deliver expectation with promising simulations and an amp in common it might be worth trying another amp if you can borrow one.
What did winisd say your first port would be? What kinda power did you model it with?
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2 things. Another thread said beringer verified that inuke amps rolled of @ 6 db. 3db point 20 Hz. Also, wood floors, drywall absorb low frequencies. I lived in an older house and built all kinds of subwoofer, no bass. Moved, walk out basement, concrete floor, back wall and 1/2 sides, 5" in my satellites shook Windows in their frames. Could be the room.
I own two inuke3000dsp and can attest that they do not roll off as you state. Usually, porus materials that can effectively convert sound waves to heat truly absorb bass. Ie. Insulation type materials.
I'm currently in my 'basement', which is a carpeted ~15x40 foot rectangle, so not ideal. Anyways, here is my graph. I went as loud as I possibly could without bottoming the driver. Unfortunately, I did have to do it inside as it's currently raining outside. REW seems to think it's close to 100dB until the xo roll-off. Maybe it is just my position in the room.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Ok...starting to feel a bit like an idiot, but a relieved idiot at the same time. I've got my iNuke's xo set around 80dB and to boost the gain, I'm also boosting EQ significantly from 80Hz on down (was the best I could figure out how to boost the gain using the panel). I'm thinking it'll sound much better when I hook it up to my computer and tweak the DSP with software and put it in a better room.
I know this may sound simple but did you check the wiring? Sounds like the polarity may be reversed as the same sort of thing happened to me, but with a Dayton sub amp. The amps pos and neg were reversed from the factory. Maybe the driver has the same sort of thing.
Edit: Just saw your new post after I posted.
Edit: Just saw your new post after I posted.
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Did you notice the recommended vented box volume of 1.68ft^3 on the spec page for this driver. Even at this box size and tuning, a 3" round vent is going to be over 21" long. I think you should have gone sealed.
jeff
I definitely understand polarity and phasing when multiple drivers and speakers are used, but I don't really understand how polarity matters when soloing a single driver. It's ultimately just a 180 phase shift as far as I'm aware and wouldn't sound any different when soloed out. Is that not correct...?
A problem in the signal path is a definite possibility. I mean, a poor construction can account for a few dB of losses, sure, but it would have to be pretty shoddy for the results to bear no resemblance to the sims. However you suggested that it runs out of excursion very quickly ('bottoming out'), and that's really not a good sign.
Honestly a basement should be an excellent place to get a good response out of subwoofer. The WinISD plots actually assume you're playing the speaker in 2pi, so like in the middle of a airstrip or something - a fully open outdoor space with a rock solid floor.
Playing in a basement you'd expect room gain in the region of 10-12dB on top of that figure (not uniformly across the frequencies of course), which is likely to explain those 24Hz and the 75Hz peaks (I wouldn't assume your REW is giving an accurate number though, and it's not impossible that your expectations of what 110dB of sub actually sounds like are too high. Which is the Sony sub that you say outplays it?
I certainly wouldn't rule out a dud Behringer. Their QC has improved massively in recent years but they're still a huge company making very low cost products, so could have slipped through.
Can you clarify what you mean by "I doubt I'm even hitting 90dB with the driver almost bottoming out and dang near clipping my iNuke 1,000"? If by 'bottoming out' you mean the cone is moving so far that it can't move anymore in a musical way, then it's more likely a problem with the box, or the driver. If the cone isn't moving as much as your simulations predict and the amp is clipping, then the problem is somewhere in the signal chain.
Edit: Another possibility is you just got really unlucky with the room modes, with some heavy cancellatiions in critical frequency ranges. You say no air leaks in the box but are you sure about that? The seal of the driver to the baffle can be a major culprit. That slot port looks like it starts just a little bit too close to the wall for comfort but that couldn't have anything like the impacts you mention.
Honestly a basement should be an excellent place to get a good response out of subwoofer. The WinISD plots actually assume you're playing the speaker in 2pi, so like in the middle of a airstrip or something - a fully open outdoor space with a rock solid floor.
Playing in a basement you'd expect room gain in the region of 10-12dB on top of that figure (not uniformly across the frequencies of course), which is likely to explain those 24Hz and the 75Hz peaks (I wouldn't assume your REW is giving an accurate number though, and it's not impossible that your expectations of what 110dB of sub actually sounds like are too high. Which is the Sony sub that you say outplays it?
I certainly wouldn't rule out a dud Behringer. Their QC has improved massively in recent years but they're still a huge company making very low cost products, so could have slipped through.
Can you clarify what you mean by "I doubt I'm even hitting 90dB with the driver almost bottoming out and dang near clipping my iNuke 1,000"? If by 'bottoming out' you mean the cone is moving so far that it can't move anymore in a musical way, then it's more likely a problem with the box, or the driver. If the cone isn't moving as much as your simulations predict and the amp is clipping, then the problem is somewhere in the signal chain.
Edit: Another possibility is you just got really unlucky with the room modes, with some heavy cancellatiions in critical frequency ranges. You say no air leaks in the box but are you sure about that? The seal of the driver to the baffle can be a major culprit. That slot port looks like it starts just a little bit too close to the wall for comfort but that couldn't have anything like the impacts you mention.
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Well, the thing is, I was in the live/pro audio side of things for a few years in college and I'd often run most of the gigs at about 90-95dB. At that level, you can definitely feel at least the kick drum. At full volume, I couldn't feel a dang thing with my sub nearing excursion and amp clipping. Generally speaking a ~10dB increase "sounds like" double the volume, so with a modeling of 110dB, plus room gain, I fully expected to be able to feel the bass throughout the room at least on some level and I just flat don't unless I'm literally right in front of the driver.
I'll bring it upstairs and tweak the DSP using their software before I make an ultimate decision, but the amp is near clipping and my driver is near bottoming out - it's just not nearly as loud or smooth as I was expecting. With it cranked up near full blast, I could talk just about normal volume in the downstairs room. Definitely did not expect that.
I don't really know many specs on the sub, but it's the sub in this entry-level Sony surround bundle. I think it's a 135w 8".
I'll bring it upstairs and tweak the DSP using their software before I make an ultimate decision, but the amp is near clipping and my driver is near bottoming out - it's just not nearly as loud or smooth as I was expecting. With it cranked up near full blast, I could talk just about normal volume in the downstairs room. Definitely did not expect that.
I don't really know many specs on the sub, but it's the sub in this entry-level Sony surround bundle. I think it's a 135w 8".
To feel it you need to move air, lots of it. If it is that chest slam you seek then you might want to look into building a few vbss subs with the pa-460 speaker. Chest slam is at 50hz - 60hz. Your Rew plot shows you're down 12db in that area.
He's got a healthy 63-75Hz region though, so there should be some powerful bass notes being produced. Not quite chest slam perhaps but there's some fairly serious bass punch in that region.
Seems unlikely that the Sony surround sub could be outplaying it, but it's not out of the question. Are we talking like 3dB louder on the Sony or 10dB? The best case scenario for that sub is 89-90dB/watt + 135w so maybe it's offering 110dB, and some undiagnosed issues with your box design could be knocking 3-4dB off the sim.
The Sony sub might also happen to have a strong efficiency peak in the 60-70Hz region (perhaps as much as +5dB) as cheapo subwoofers often do, and your room modes may be exciting that area where it's already strong. If they really are putting 135w into each of the satellites (specs says 10% THD at 135w which is a very specific claim to make, so it could be accurate), then the sub would need to be fairly powerful to keep up. (Amazon reviews describe the sub as 'overpowering')
Seems unlikely that the Sony surround sub could be outplaying it, but it's not out of the question. Are we talking like 3dB louder on the Sony or 10dB? The best case scenario for that sub is 89-90dB/watt + 135w so maybe it's offering 110dB, and some undiagnosed issues with your box design could be knocking 3-4dB off the sim.
The Sony sub might also happen to have a strong efficiency peak in the 60-70Hz region (perhaps as much as +5dB) as cheapo subwoofers often do, and your room modes may be exciting that area where it's already strong. If they really are putting 135w into each of the satellites (specs says 10% THD at 135w which is a very specific claim to make, so it could be accurate), then the sub would need to be fairly powerful to keep up. (Amazon reviews describe the sub as 'overpowering')
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The problem I was having sounded like yours in a way, although I guess mine was much different. I wanted to use the high level inputs into the sub amp and was underwhelmed at first and wondered what was up?, then I discovered the amp had all the inputs reversed. Red was black, black was red etc. I knew 2 18" drivers had more oomph than that from using them on another amp I had, then after figuring out what was up all sounded great again. It was a simple fix but stumped me for a bit, as the Dayton amp was brand new and who wudda thunk :/ Anyhow still using that same amp after all these years 🙂
My experience of playing seriously loud speakers indoors is fairly limited, and nothing very recent, but I remember having a 117dB plastic monitor type speaker with 70Hz extension in my early 20's, and I ran that to full blast a fair few times indoors. It was loud but, you know, could be a lot louder. My experience with high output PA systems also lowered my threshold of tolerance to that sort of thing.
My ex-girlfriend had a pair of speakers in the same room. Some Klipsch monitors, 8" woofer + horns, quite high end. Pretty sure they ran up to somewhere around 112-113dB or so and we had a beefy pro audio amp (300w per channel at least) that would run them, sometimes up to maximum volume. They extended to 45 or 50Hz, something like that. Can't say I was ever impressed with the bass they produced, I mean I never felt it shake the room or a chesty physical sensation or anything like that.
On the other hand, an RCF ESW1015 hybrid horn bass bin wired up to a 10w hifi amp in the same room totally had that physiscal, 'omg this is bass!' sensation. But that thing indoors is so damned efficient that even a 10w hifi amp could have had it going at 116dB, and with the huge cone and all that all adds to the feeling. But to be honest the RCF gave a tangible sensation of bass as soon as you tickled the volume up from zero. A lot of it can be placebo, evoking strong memories and associations of a big music event, which can relate to the character of the sound of that driver and enclosure.
The thing about feeling the bass is it's more about the amount of cone area you get moving than the SPL you produce. You mentioned 90-95dB but was that average or peak rating? 95dB average for live music could still allow for some seriously heavy peaks on the kick drum.
My ex-girlfriend had a pair of speakers in the same room. Some Klipsch monitors, 8" woofer + horns, quite high end. Pretty sure they ran up to somewhere around 112-113dB or so and we had a beefy pro audio amp (300w per channel at least) that would run them, sometimes up to maximum volume. They extended to 45 or 50Hz, something like that. Can't say I was ever impressed with the bass they produced, I mean I never felt it shake the room or a chesty physical sensation or anything like that.
On the other hand, an RCF ESW1015 hybrid horn bass bin wired up to a 10w hifi amp in the same room totally had that physiscal, 'omg this is bass!' sensation. But that thing indoors is so damned efficient that even a 10w hifi amp could have had it going at 116dB, and with the huge cone and all that all adds to the feeling. But to be honest the RCF gave a tangible sensation of bass as soon as you tickled the volume up from zero. A lot of it can be placebo, evoking strong memories and associations of a big music event, which can relate to the character of the sound of that driver and enclosure.
The thing about feeling the bass is it's more about the amount of cone area you get moving than the SPL you produce. You mentioned 90-95dB but was that average or peak rating? 95dB average for live music could still allow for some seriously heavy peaks on the kick drum.
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Two things:
1. As you've figured out, you need to turn the gain up on the amp. It's a pro audio amp that requires a higher input signal than home audio stuff.
2. I suggest performing an impedance test on your subwoofer if you can, to confirm that you hit the target Fb. It's quite possible that the vent is actually longer than required, which results in a lower Fb and lower output in the passband.
1. As you've figured out, you need to turn the gain up on the amp. It's a pro audio amp that requires a higher input signal than home audio stuff.
2. I suggest performing an impedance test on your subwoofer if you can, to confirm that you hit the target Fb. It's quite possible that the vent is actually longer than required, which results in a lower Fb and lower output in the passband.
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