Almost everyone have a different opinion when it comes to cabels, some praise the expensive ones like Transparent XL, Nordost vallhalla etc.
But take this into consideration, if you are at a party drinking beer, you get drunk right ? If someone relabels all your beer so that it looks like regular beer but its actually beer without alcohol, you will stil get drunk! Now why is that ? Your expectations are to get drunk, and your body and mind will adapt to what it think its drinking.
In my opinion its the same thing with cabels, if you get a pair of 1000$ interconnects your expectations is that it will sound much bether then a 10$ cabel. And so it does, or atleast you will think it does. Just as you get drunk drinking beer without alcohol.
Just like the starter of this thread did with his coworkers at the audio store, they all thought they got the real beer, but got drunk on non alcohol beer instead.
But take this into consideration, if you are at a party drinking beer, you get drunk right ? If someone relabels all your beer so that it looks like regular beer but its actually beer without alcohol, you will stil get drunk! Now why is that ? Your expectations are to get drunk, and your body and mind will adapt to what it think its drinking.
In my opinion its the same thing with cabels, if you get a pair of 1000$ interconnects your expectations is that it will sound much bether then a 10$ cabel. And so it does, or atleast you will think it does. Just as you get drunk drinking beer without alcohol.
Just like the starter of this thread did with his coworkers at the audio store, they all thought they got the real beer, but got drunk on non alcohol beer instead.
you are absolutely right.
only the worst cables can if used over a long distance make an audible difference. almost any commercially available cable would do, as a loudspeaker wire. the only thing is to keep resistance low compared to the dc-resistance and impedance of the loudspeakers. just make sure it's reasonably sized.
interlinks are even more uncritical. even the ones that came with your cd-player "sound" as good as the so called high-end cables!
this subject has already been covered in a thousand other threads on this and other forums. you'll see that there are always people trying to convince the others they cán hear differences between cables, and most of the time they are actually right! they dó hear a difference. just like the getting drunk in your example.
only the worst cables can if used over a long distance make an audible difference. almost any commercially available cable would do, as a loudspeaker wire. the only thing is to keep resistance low compared to the dc-resistance and impedance of the loudspeakers. just make sure it's reasonably sized.
interlinks are even more uncritical. even the ones that came with your cd-player "sound" as good as the so called high-end cables!
this subject has already been covered in a thousand other threads on this and other forums. you'll see that there are always people trying to convince the others they cán hear differences between cables, and most of the time they are actually right! they dó hear a difference. just like the getting drunk in your example.
You are absolutely wrong as cables do sound different. If you get drunk on beer or any drink without alcohol, then you have mental problems, please don´t mix that up with high resolution audio.
/Peter
/Peter
cables DO sound different.
I've heard a difference between different kinds of cables.
currently I'm using some braided cat 5 as speakercable and the difference with the QED Original Bi-Wire Mk2 is significant.
If you're talking about prices, that's something different.
you can't get many cables that are cheaper than cat5, can you?
final conclusion: cables do sound different, but the sound doesn't improve equally with the price...
I've heard a difference between different kinds of cables.
currently I'm using some braided cat 5 as speakercable and the difference with the QED Original Bi-Wire Mk2 is significant.
If you're talking about prices, that's something different.
you can't get many cables that are cheaper than cat5, can you?
final conclusion: cables do sound different, but the sound doesn't improve equally with the price...
Pan said:
I belive this comment speaks for itself interms of lack of knowledge.
The fact that you will get drunk if you're sure you're drinking alcohol, but in reality isnt. Is well documented and scientific proven.
Ofcourse they do. But I have no inclination to try to convince people that it is so.
This is also true.
"I belive this comment speaks for itself interms of lack of knowledge. "
Moahahaa, I´ve been drinking alcohol for 23 years and I can assure you I do not get drunk if there are no alcohol in my glass. Hehe, this old wino has more knowledge than you´d like to hear of.
"The fact that you will get drunk if you're sure you're drinking alcohol, but in reality isnt. Is well documented and scientific proven."
Yes, many people have mental problems. 😉
/Peter
Moahahaa, I´ve been drinking alcohol for 23 years and I can assure you I do not get drunk if there are no alcohol in my glass. Hehe, this old wino has more knowledge than you´d like to hear of.
"The fact that you will get drunk if you're sure you're drinking alcohol, but in reality isnt. Is well documented and scientific proven."
Yes, many people have mental problems. 😉
/Peter
I haven't read every posting so excuse me if I am blurting out cra* - I mean a new position 🙂 .
Isn't this a simple case of:
- Cable spend should be proportional to overall system spend as a guide. Cables are a part of the system as a CD player is etc...
- Law of diminishing returns above a certain point
- Quality of the cabling and connectors on the components / speakers in question. I mean if they use 26AWG+ in your speakers, then taking 4AWG or an expensive 12AWG cable to them won't make a huge difference?
The same arguments above could be used on any audio component in the listening chain
PS: Completely unrelated - how do you measure phase and FR response of the average listener's ears?
Dave.
Isn't this a simple case of:
- Cable spend should be proportional to overall system spend as a guide. Cables are a part of the system as a CD player is etc...
- Law of diminishing returns above a certain point
- Quality of the cabling and connectors on the components / speakers in question. I mean if they use 26AWG+ in your speakers, then taking 4AWG or an expensive 12AWG cable to them won't make a huge difference?
The same arguments above could be used on any audio component in the listening chain
PS: Completely unrelated - how do you measure phase and FR response of the average listener's ears?
Dave.
Dave,
price does not have much to do with it and also it does not matter if the AWG is small in the speaker. The VC has very tiny winding but still a 1 meter length outside the speaker makes a difference. It´s not only about the thickness of conductor, it´s about geometry, stranded vs. solid core, dielectric and such things.
/Peter
price does not have much to do with it and also it does not matter if the AWG is small in the speaker. The VC has very tiny winding but still a 1 meter length outside the speaker makes a difference. It´s not only about the thickness of conductor, it´s about geometry, stranded vs. solid core, dielectric and such things.
/Peter
Pan said:
I would argue and say its only as good as your weakest link.
So if you believe silver sounds better, make sure you match the silver cable up with a speaker voice coil wound with silver wire.
Voice coil wire must be at least a meter for a mid range, no?
(Personally think it makes a difference, but not noticable unless the LCR of the cable is way off).
"I would argue and say its only as good as your weakest link."
This is not the way it works. You can have a weak link but still hear differences between other links with smaller errors than the "weakest" link.
A VC has thin wire (so little skin effect) and it is glued in place (so no microphonics) and is solid core (no strand jumping or diode effects). How significant this is I have no idea of, but I have a gut feeling that a VC is a better piece of conductor than a poor cable.
There´s a clear audible difference in cables with LCR that should not account for any abnormal behaviour in lengths as short as 1 meter. Also the differences that LCR would contribute with would be a very small change in Fr that can not explain the difference in resolution and noisefloor.
/Peter
This is not the way it works. You can have a weak link but still hear differences between other links with smaller errors than the "weakest" link.
A VC has thin wire (so little skin effect) and it is glued in place (so no microphonics) and is solid core (no strand jumping or diode effects). How significant this is I have no idea of, but I have a gut feeling that a VC is a better piece of conductor than a poor cable.
There´s a clear audible difference in cables with LCR that should not account for any abnormal behaviour in lengths as short as 1 meter. Also the differences that LCR would contribute with would be a very small change in Fr that can not explain the difference in resolution and noisefloor.
/Peter
Forget speaker cables. I've gone a quantum step beyond. See the speaker system in my avatar?! These speakers make coffee taste better! S'true. Take your everyday cup of morning coffee and listen to these speakers while you drink it and you will enjoy your coffee much more than ever before. Why? Well because they must make the cofee taste better. I'm gonna haveta use this fact in my product advertising.
Listening to a movie with them also makes the colors more lifelike and vibrant. S'true!
None of this would be possible though if I weren't using ultra hi-performance boutique speaker cables.
Listening to a movie with them also makes the colors more lifelike and vibrant. S'true!
None of this would be possible though if I weren't using ultra hi-performance boutique speaker cables.
I tried to read this thread to avoid redundancy but .. good lord!
I was hoping that the original question would ignite some discussion on the merits of really objective blind testing of ANY equipment - but especially of "tweaks" to the system. I've always marvelled at how the big money equipment reviews/reviewers seem to get away with working without (literally) blindfolds. It can't be argued that it would pose insurmountable difficulty. The answer is pretty obvious. About eighty percent of their opinion would be instantly debunked. Paid by the word, most of them would be out of jobs. Think about it. At the end of every review you read would come the denoument - and an honest one.... "oh my goodness, it is indeed a __________" Or "wow, am I genuinely humbled folks!" or even "see? I DO know what the hell I'm talking about"
That would be so refreshing. And so worthwhile to read.
I was hoping that the original question would ignite some discussion on the merits of really objective blind testing of ANY equipment - but especially of "tweaks" to the system. I've always marvelled at how the big money equipment reviews/reviewers seem to get away with working without (literally) blindfolds. It can't be argued that it would pose insurmountable difficulty. The answer is pretty obvious. About eighty percent of their opinion would be instantly debunked. Paid by the word, most of them would be out of jobs. Think about it. At the end of every review you read would come the denoument - and an honest one.... "oh my goodness, it is indeed a __________" Or "wow, am I genuinely humbled folks!" or even "see? I DO know what the hell I'm talking about"
That would be so refreshing. And so worthwhile to read.
Bluebeard, you've put your finger right on it- Hifi writers are not in the business of reviewing equipment, nor doing research, nor doing rigorous testing nor revealing "truth." They are in the business of writing entertaining prose that sells magazines and advertising. Any intersection with reality is purely coincidental.
Well, I thought I may as well throw my 2 cents in. I have a pair of Martin Logans that I bought about 2 years ago. At the time I had the money to buy two 4 foot lengths of MIT something or other speaker cables for about $500. When I moved the stereo system from the living room to the family room I hooked everything up and listened for about 2 weeks. Everything was hunky dory except I was having difficulty placing the logans in the right positions for the best soundstage and imaging. It seemed that they wanted to be further apart and further from the back wall. My family room is quite large so I had the room to do this without having the speakers too close to the side walls. Trouble was that my $500 speaker cables were not long enough. Well my wife would have beat the heck out of me if I spent another $500+ on speaker cables so on a whim I went down to my local electrical parts outlet and purchased 20 feet of 220v 50 amp 8 awg flexible ship to shore power cable for $100. This is not crapy, cheap stuff. It is Belden cable and is the same stuff one would use to get shore power to their yacht. I brought it home and put on some nice spade lugs and heat shrink tubing. I did it up real nice. Ok, ok so the cable was yellow. I can't have everything. Neverless, I was able to position the logans properly with the extra length and really could not tell the difference between cables other than the effect of properly positioning the speakers. I don't know what this proved exactly but I feel good quality cable, wether $100 or $500 or $5000 shouldn't sound too much different. At least it didn't to my ears.
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