Most reputable Hi-Fi shops will let you borrow cables to test in your own system for a small deposit. One dealership here in the UK, (Richer Sounds), even has special demo packs, with 5 or 6 different cables for you to try at your leisure.
The Paulinator said:
I find that raspberry bubblegum can sound a bit grainy or forward, but that guava or mango flavour gives a more tighly-integrated and faster sound.
Cheers
IH
Ian, you're deaf and you drink too much. Any idiot knows that Bazooka works best (with Fleer a close second), especially if you use the little comic inside to wrap around the cable.
I've been experimenting with the comic orientation to see which gives me the best intertransient silence and the least time smear. So far, I'd go with the comic with the guy in the turtleneck, artwork facing "in" on the positive leg. and "out" on the negative leg.
I've been experimenting with the comic orientation to see which gives me the best intertransient silence and the least time smear. So far, I'd go with the comic with the guy in the turtleneck, artwork facing "in" on the positive leg. and "out" on the negative leg.
Ahh good question, why not indeed?
You've made a very important observation here. Only configurations way outside the norm (Goertz for example)could make provable claims regarding system matching. Goertz actully does, because they can cause some amps (Naim par example) to oscillate. Not something to brag about though.
If you've got time, perhaps you can read the whole thread, it's a bit of a bear, but if you're up to it there is some pretty good info tucked in between all the sniping. Inductance, capacitance, skin effect, plating, microphonics, even magnetostriction have been covered.
Why not do as Pinkmouse suggests, only do the testing blind? That way you can pick the correct cable on it's merrit and not be influenced by price or reputaion. Throw some lamp cord into the mix as well, you might be surprised.
Chris
You've made a very important observation here. Only configurations way outside the norm (Goertz for example)could make provable claims regarding system matching. Goertz actully does, because they can cause some amps (Naim par example) to oscillate. Not something to brag about though.
If you've got time, perhaps you can read the whole thread, it's a bit of a bear, but if you're up to it there is some pretty good info tucked in between all the sniping. Inductance, capacitance, skin effect, plating, microphonics, even magnetostriction have been covered.
Why not do as Pinkmouse suggests, only do the testing blind? That way you can pick the correct cable on it's merrit and not be influenced by price or reputaion. Throw some lamp cord into the mix as well, you might be surprised.
Chris
It's minium 11 hour flight distance!pinkmouse said:
I feel sad... why no such kind of service in this area...?
Following What Hi*Fi? awards winner, today I was about to buy Supra Rondo 4X2.5. Whek... you know? the price indication was 3 times higher than UK price, probably for the reason of the awards winner. Crazy. Bull S business people! My blood pressure is boiling.
Hi,
Well, that actually has more to do with the way the amp is designed, not the cable.
Cheers,😉
Well, that actually has more to do with the way the amp is designed, not the cable.
Cheers,😉
Dead on, Frank. An amp sold to the public needs to be stable with a very wide range of anticipated loads.
Sy, Frank
Actually that one is not true - with Naim amps, Naim's cable is part of the amplifier design and it's use is explicitly required, as referred to in the owners manuals.
They also warn against the use of other cables for this reason - it fulfils the job normally performed by an output inductor, hence there is a minimum specified length for unconditional stability.
Quite clever - it eliminates a component and saves the 'which cable is best' discussions - the Naim stuff is pretty cheap as cables go. When it is used, the amps are unconditionally stable into any load.
Andy.
Actually that one is not true - with Naim amps, Naim's cable is part of the amplifier design and it's use is explicitly required, as referred to in the owners manuals.
They also warn against the use of other cables for this reason - it fulfils the job normally performed by an output inductor, hence there is a minimum specified length for unconditional stability.
Quite clever - it eliminates a component and saves the 'which cable is best' discussions - the Naim stuff is pretty cheap as cables go. When it is used, the amps are unconditionally stable into any load.
Andy.
Once I have tried the sound of Naim in the high-end audio shop. The sound has been very nice. But, they have been using horrible quality of speaker cables. ??????
Hi,
No offense, Andy but once you start designing like that there's just no end to it.
Cheers,😉
No offense, Andy but once you start designing like that there's just no end to it.
Cheers,😉
Re: Ahh good question, why not indeed?
It occurs to me your results will vary depending on where in the world you are.
Seriously! Assume mains cable is principally rated so that it doesn't heat up enough to catch fire. (American) 110V mains cable has to take twice the current that (European) 220V does in any given application. For the same power dissipation (given by I^2.R), it will therefore need one-quarter of the resistance.
I've certainly got bits of European 'lamp cord' lying around with an ohm or so resistance, and I think that's audible. A quarter of that, however, is less plausible.
Cheers
IH
Christopher said:
It occurs to me your results will vary depending on where in the world you are.
Seriously! Assume mains cable is principally rated so that it doesn't heat up enough to catch fire. (American) 110V mains cable has to take twice the current that (European) 220V does in any given application. For the same power dissipation (given by I^2.R), it will therefore need one-quarter of the resistance.
I've certainly got bits of European 'lamp cord' lying around with an ohm or so resistance, and I think that's audible. A quarter of that, however, is less plausible.
Cheers
IH
Really? One ohm lamp cord? What gauge is it?
Perhaps I should have said 14 or 16ga to be safe. My mistake. But, for the hell of it I just measured a piece of 18AWG standard lamp cord, and I got a resistance of 20 milliohms per meter.
Chris
Perhaps I should have said 14 or 16ga to be safe. My mistake. But, for the hell of it I just measured a piece of 18AWG standard lamp cord, and I got a resistance of 20 milliohms per meter.
Chris
How do you define 'horrible quality'?
You really should read the whole thread. There is a large group here who think it's pretty hard to hear differences between even the "best" cables and good old 14ga multistrand. Some (I'm one) think it's virtually impossible for there to be a difference simply based on common electronics theory. And some who beleive no doubt there are great differences. You may end up saving some money by reading the thread. But for sure, if you are going to listen to cables do it under even an informal blind test (someone else changes the cables back and forth such that you don't know which one you are listening to).
Chris
No offense taken!
Although I don't really understand what you mean by the above.
The output inductor is a necessary evil for stability with cap loads in many cases, hence using an essential component to replace one that has side effects sounds like a good idea to me.
As Sy says, it certainly defines the loads pretty tightly, which means less compromise elsewhere.
There's no secret either, the cable specs are published, so alternative cables can be used, if desired.
Let's face it, do we want to play with cables, or listen to music.
I take the latter every time 😉
Andy.
Although I don't really understand what you mean by the above.
The output inductor is a necessary evil for stability with cap loads in many cases, hence using an essential component to replace one that has side effects sounds like a good idea to me.
As Sy says, it certainly defines the loads pretty tightly, which means less compromise elsewhere.
There's no secret either, the cable specs are published, so alternative cables can be used, if desired.
Let's face it, do we want to play with cables, or listen to music.
I take the latter every time 😉
Andy.
Hi,
Andy, I think I read SY a little differently than you seem to do.
Music, naturally....still we are trying to discuss the effects of cables here, aren't we?
From what I've read from your previous post you want to extract the last bit of performance from your system and as far as that is concerned I'm with you 100%.
Cheers,😉
Andy, I think I read SY a little differently than you seem to do.
Music, naturally....still we are trying to discuss the effects of cables here, aren't we?
From what I've read from your previous post you want to extract the last bit of performance from your system and as far as that is concerned I'm with you 100%.
Cheers,😉
Hello gentlemen
My contribution (interference) to this thread:
Some months ago after having auditioned the "Nord-Ost" flat speaker cables and interconnects at a friend's house (positive comments), I decided to construct some speaker cables and some low signal interconnects as well, out of computer ribbon cable.
The intent of the whole exercise, was - under a very limited budget - to explore the "sound" of flat cables. I tried to eliminate as many construction variables as possible, or at least to group some of them. So, i used Computer type flat ribbon cable (~ 1 euro/m) and bulk gold plated connectors (~2 euro each). The published data for the ribbon cable are: 36 (for speaker cable), 26 (for small signal interconnect) parallel #28 (d= 0.015") 5 strand tinted copper conductor on 0.050" centers with PVC insulation.
I made three pairs of speaker cables 2 m long, three pairs of interconnects 0.3 m long, three pairs of interconnects 0.5 m long and three pairs of interconnects 1 m long. In all cases, the only variable among each of the three pairs was the sequence of the (+) and (-) that each individual strand was connected to. :
Pair 1:
+++++++++++++-------------
Pair 2:
-+---++----++++----++---+-
Pair 3:
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
One concequence of the different construction is that each of the three pairs has different -measurable and calculeable-values of lumped L and C (R remains the same).
One other concequence is that the electrical fields (visualized by equipotential surfaces around each conductor and by flux lines between conductors with opposite polarity) and the corresponding magnetic fields, are vastly different.
Listening results summary:
A. Different pairs do sound different, noticeably different.
B. Same pair sounds quite different when connected in different audio gear.
C. "Sound signature" of a pair is affected by it's length, but, there is a limit to this. Very short cable runs, still retain their "sound signature".
Unfortunatelly I am not in position to tell how much of the differences in sound observed, are relating to differencies of Ls & Cs and how much to the differencies of the fields.
What I can say with confidence after this trial, is that sound differences are not attributed to different materials of conductors and insulators. In all pairs, materials utilised, were exactly the same.
A very interesting finding was that all flat interconnects were equal to, or superior to shielded and to twisted pair interconnects in terms of hum and noise pick-up. This also, i can not explain.
I have to comment the following:
Every contributor to this thread adds something to our knowledge. The way of members interaction is sometimes "Ego"influenced, but that's life. In the end we realise that our knowledge in technical matters is limited and our reaction habits need improvement.
Reffering to #391 thread: I think that Mr. Kuei Yang Wang's reference to Magnetostriction effect is wrong. Magnetostriction is a phenomenon where a ferromagnetic (and only) material distorts in shape when an electric current passes through it. Magnetostriction, like it's analogous piezoelectricity, is acting from both ends: either physical distortion is produced with the passage of current, or current is produced when material is physically distorted. Magnetostriction effect is attributed to (ferromagnetic material's) crystal lattice being magnetically non homogenous. What Mr. Kuei describes hapenning between two conductors carying currents with opposite polarity, is in my opinion the effect of Coulomb Forces and interaction between oposing magnetic fields. If speaker cables were constructed with ferromagnetic materials, then magnetostriction might come into play, but i think this is a very remote case.
Regards
George
My contribution (interference) to this thread:
Some months ago after having auditioned the "Nord-Ost" flat speaker cables and interconnects at a friend's house (positive comments), I decided to construct some speaker cables and some low signal interconnects as well, out of computer ribbon cable.
The intent of the whole exercise, was - under a very limited budget - to explore the "sound" of flat cables. I tried to eliminate as many construction variables as possible, or at least to group some of them. So, i used Computer type flat ribbon cable (~ 1 euro/m) and bulk gold plated connectors (~2 euro each). The published data for the ribbon cable are: 36 (for speaker cable), 26 (for small signal interconnect) parallel #28 (d= 0.015") 5 strand tinted copper conductor on 0.050" centers with PVC insulation.
I made three pairs of speaker cables 2 m long, three pairs of interconnects 0.3 m long, three pairs of interconnects 0.5 m long and three pairs of interconnects 1 m long. In all cases, the only variable among each of the three pairs was the sequence of the (+) and (-) that each individual strand was connected to. :
Pair 1:
+++++++++++++-------------
Pair 2:
-+---++----++++----++---+-
Pair 3:
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
One concequence of the different construction is that each of the three pairs has different -measurable and calculeable-values of lumped L and C (R remains the same).
One other concequence is that the electrical fields (visualized by equipotential surfaces around each conductor and by flux lines between conductors with opposite polarity) and the corresponding magnetic fields, are vastly different.
Listening results summary:
A. Different pairs do sound different, noticeably different.
B. Same pair sounds quite different when connected in different audio gear.
C. "Sound signature" of a pair is affected by it's length, but, there is a limit to this. Very short cable runs, still retain their "sound signature".
Unfortunatelly I am not in position to tell how much of the differences in sound observed, are relating to differencies of Ls & Cs and how much to the differencies of the fields.
What I can say with confidence after this trial, is that sound differences are not attributed to different materials of conductors and insulators. In all pairs, materials utilised, were exactly the same.
A very interesting finding was that all flat interconnects were equal to, or superior to shielded and to twisted pair interconnects in terms of hum and noise pick-up. This also, i can not explain.
I have to comment the following:
Every contributor to this thread adds something to our knowledge. The way of members interaction is sometimes "Ego"influenced, but that's life. In the end we realise that our knowledge in technical matters is limited and our reaction habits need improvement.
Reffering to #391 thread: I think that Mr. Kuei Yang Wang's reference to Magnetostriction effect is wrong. Magnetostriction is a phenomenon where a ferromagnetic (and only) material distorts in shape when an electric current passes through it. Magnetostriction, like it's analogous piezoelectricity, is acting from both ends: either physical distortion is produced with the passage of current, or current is produced when material is physically distorted. Magnetostriction effect is attributed to (ferromagnetic material's) crystal lattice being magnetically non homogenous. What Mr. Kuei describes hapenning between two conductors carying currents with opposite polarity, is in my opinion the effect of Coulomb Forces and interaction between oposing magnetic fields. If speaker cables were constructed with ferromagnetic materials, then magnetostriction might come into play, but i think this is a very remote case.
Regards
George
Christopher said:
From high-end audio fanatics (not my) point of view.
Of course, a blind A/B/C/D... test might help me to find the best selection. My dream however was finding the right one more simply, if possible.
[Off-topic]
Refer to Post #565.
Last night I was thinking of buying the What Hi*Fi? awards winner cables paying the 3 times normal price. Continued my thinking of connecting one ends of those cables to the 200W power amp speaker terminals and the opposite ends to the cable dealer's nostrils and giving him a full volume... O...Do not read this seriously.
[End of off-topic]
I'm sure any of those differences between the cables can be remedied with the use of an in-line flux capacitor. and if you didn't read a few of the past posts, bubble gum at the joints (or even surrounding the binding posts) will reduce the negative effects of the emissions of sunspots. All the gums mentioned are fine, I'm sure, but Bubble Tape wins in the ease of use category (for you..... not them!)
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