Sorry, it was 'What Hi-Fi". Not sure if they have it online, maybe Google Books? I no longer have the mag and can't provide details, I don't recall being impressed by the protocol.
A blurb about it lifted randomly about it, from Head-Fi.
So you quote the one test that maybe supports your opinion but you leave out all other tests that consistently shows that people can not pick the difference in cables....hmmmm.
You do realize that your statistical significance so far is about 10% considering that was 1 test out of 10 different tests, Im not sure about you but I have to accept a value higher then 10%. 😉
I guess you would conclude this one to be inaccurate?
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
Are you ready for a DBT?
and will you answer this question....
If you guys believe DBTs are horrible then what do you suggest people do when setting up a listening test?
You do realize that your statistical significance so far is about 10% considering that was 1 test out of 10 different tests, Im not sure about you but I have to accept a value higher then 10%. 😉
I guess you would conclude this one to be inaccurate?
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
Are you ready for a DBT?
and will you answer this question....
If you guys believe DBTs are horrible then what do you suggest people do when setting up a listening test?
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DBT validity
The problem is denial of the logical explanation of why you hear a difference is the heart of the matter, and the pathetic attempts to impune that explanation is the cause of the dispute.
Do you ever make use of any medications, or medical interventional procedures in your life outside of audio-philia? You, and other 'believers', seem hellbent on decrying the validity of blind testing as a protocol for determining what works and what doesn't in general.
Are you aware that placebo controlled (multi-type) blinded studies are the norm in such mundane fields as aerospace engineering, medical pharmaceuticals and research protocols, etc. ad nauseum. What's "special" about high end audio that precludes the validity of such designs to determine hypothetical premises? Certainly not the intimidation factor (as in 'just knowing a test is going on negates its' conclusions') pablum nonsense you and others are throwing around as if it is the gospel truth, as many of these studies involve life and death situations.
All of the hand waving redirects are pointless sidestepping of the same question oft repeated daily here and on other useless threads; "Where's the beef (proof)" to paraphrase an old ad campaign.
Why not accept the premise as an unprovable observation of subjectively valid illusion and/or preference as an individual opinion, rather than arguing ad nauseum like JC and others about testing limitations and "we don't know everything about (whatever)"... along with ad hominem volleys against posters "credentials"...
John L.
The problem is denial of the logical explanation of why you hear a difference is the heart of the matter, and the pathetic attempts to impune that explanation is the cause of the dispute.
Do you ever make use of any medications, or medical interventional procedures in your life outside of audio-philia? You, and other 'believers', seem hellbent on decrying the validity of blind testing as a protocol for determining what works and what doesn't in general.
Are you aware that placebo controlled (multi-type) blinded studies are the norm in such mundane fields as aerospace engineering, medical pharmaceuticals and research protocols, etc. ad nauseum. What's "special" about high end audio that precludes the validity of such designs to determine hypothetical premises? Certainly not the intimidation factor (as in 'just knowing a test is going on negates its' conclusions') pablum nonsense you and others are throwing around as if it is the gospel truth, as many of these studies involve life and death situations.
All of the hand waving redirects are pointless sidestepping of the same question oft repeated daily here and on other useless threads; "Where's the beef (proof)" to paraphrase an old ad campaign.
Why not accept the premise as an unprovable observation of subjectively valid illusion and/or preference as an individual opinion, rather than arguing ad nauseum like JC and others about testing limitations and "we don't know everything about (whatever)"... along with ad hominem volleys against posters "credentials"...
John L.
Enough. I made it clear ad nauseum that I don't consider any of the DBT protocols to date very good, all have huge room for improvement. I welcome proper tests and beleive it's beyond the grasp of normal basement hobbyists to do correctly to a meaningful level.
You ignore the content of the posts to which you reply, drop lines of inquiry the moment your question is answered and substitute your own reality. You obviously have no desire for a reasonable discussion. I'm tired of chasing straw men, for the sake of meaningful debate you're on ignore.
If it were on track it would not be so long. It would be on track if people were not having imaginary arguments and quoting things that were never said.
I don't see how it would be scientific proof. It is evidence and suggests there is no one answer to this whole thing.
I honestly don't believe either side has proven a GD thing. They have presented evidence though. This is why I don't understand all the posting about proof when its obvious DBTing cannot produce proof and it is near impossible for individuals to provide any proof of what they hear. Be nice if a lab somewhere did some real testing and put this mofo to bed.
Presenting evidence for either side will never equate to any kind of proof. We need to keep in mind the fact that lots of people will want a rig to sound as good as possible based on what they hear. This is why so many people don't understand you point of view because even if you were to prove your side of this it would never change the way people perceive and hear music coming out of a rig they put together.
I don't like to use the word better because people tend to wanna equate more expensive with better. They are different than other cables I have tried and those differences were desirable to me. I like my music dynamic and smooth. Maybe someone with a warmish rolled off system would want silver to achieve the same results I did. This is why better is the wrong word.
I would suggest something in silver or silver plated copper. I guess the polar opposite to my KC's should be something stranded, silver or hybrid, and not shielded. Kimbers maybe? Some freebies would be good for the comparison as well.
Roll your eyes all you want. Just try and not do it when having arguments using fictional added words and when using evidence as proof. It just pisses people off and adds fuel to the unnecessary and childish bickering. I know some people get a charge out of it and I will keep pointing that out since some of us seem to think it makes them appear to be intelligent. Please don't assume this is directed at any one person, as it is not.
"Proper" tests, which of course will never be done "to a meaningful level", allowing one to cling to beliefs (insert the "sound" of wire, caps, purifiers, intelligent chips, audiophile effect X, etc, etc.) in a recursive loop. The perfect antidote to "hey, I've got zero, zip, not a shred of evidence".
Brilliant.😉
Jakob2, John Risch, et al, get out of your basements and do something meaningful!!
Hate to guess because memories are faint but I think it was a group session using speakers.
I already covered my thoughts on how to listen and since you are so interested in testing then I would recommend you figure out a plausible method. Just because you can't seem to do that doesn't reflect on myself or rds in anyway. If you can't do it then drop it and just use your ears. Unless you just can't bare to let go of the cable crusade so many people cling too. Did it ever occur to you that because plausible or cost effective testing methods don't seem to be available that no one has come up with a definitive answer yet?
Since when is the only known or plausible method the best and only way of providing "proof"?
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That's not your method, so why suggest that Doug use it?
"Just use your ears" is the scientific "proof" method, aka DBT.
Your (and JC's, et al) method is "just use your eyes, knowledge, biases and imagination, along with your ears"...to "hear" wires, etc.
At least get that straight.
Here's the link again:Testing audiophile claims and myths - Head-Fi.org Community
Notice what is says at the bottom.
It would be cool to read the 2/12 tests that claim a difference was heard. Both of them were conducted by HiFi magazines. The one you can read online: AVR blind cable test - AVReview Features did not use matched levels and that was most discernible feature. The total number correct 14/20 was not statistically significant and that includes the cable that had a perceived volume difference. Please read the whole article so you can pick up on the details I left out, but I wouldn't say that test actually showed a difference as they readily admit. So I guess that leaves us back to 1/12--maybe.
Dan
Notice what is says at the bottom.
It would be cool to read the 2/12 tests that claim a difference was heard. Both of them were conducted by HiFi magazines. The one you can read online: AVR blind cable test - AVReview Features did not use matched levels and that was most discernible feature. The total number correct 14/20 was not statistically significant and that includes the cable that had a perceived volume difference. Please read the whole article so you can pick up on the details I left out, but I wouldn't say that test actually showed a difference as they readily admit. So I guess that leaves us back to 1/12--maybe.
Dan
I have asked honest questions. You have made it clear that DBTs are not good at all so I would like to know what you suggest instead of them.
To reply telling me that its beyond the grasp of normal basement hobbiests is definitely classic strawman tatics.
So far real experts with real published data and foundations. You refuse to acknowledge even what the National Research Council of Canada as done (so un-Canadian of you 😉 ) and you simply disagree with what Harman listening labs does ( I have you been there?).
Do you have any publishings at all? You would even care to expose why have such huge bias. I get the feeling you sell audio products hence your aggressive tendencies to defend subjectivity.
Im not so sure about that
We know fore a fact that a blind person may devellop even further sharpening of other senses
But that takes some time, maybe a lot
If you blind a person who is used to rely on his sight, he gets very confused, looses concentration, and thus results in an immediate loss of other senses
Our senses are closely connected
Try the common one, hold your nose, and how does the food taste then
Well, you know how that one works
All Im saying is, it may not be that simple at all
Our senses are not just something you can turn off, without some kind of sideeffects
IF detecting these small differences we are talking about here actually takes a lot of brain work and concentraion, and maybe even being something we are not all able to, then its not unlikely that those differences will be harder to detect under pressure, or if efforts are being done to "blind" and "confuse" the listener
Thats why I claimed that if you remove the "subjectivity" and "emotion" from listening, there wont be much left to hear, other than non involving noise
Something your brain wont like too much, and it slows down into "ignoring mode", and gets less sharp, less focused
Which leaves the test person half asleep and bored
Im sure someone will feel tired and less engaged
Others may be surpriced that it suddenly sounds a lot different from what they are used to
I have done nothing wrong to be moderated, I can question everything about what you post. I can ask every time for data. That is not against the forum rules.
Im definitely not trolling. Im building speakers. Why are you in the DIY forum. How many speaker driver, XO discussions are you in?
From my search I only see trolling from yourself and RDF. You contribute no where else in this speaker forum but you want to banter here.
I do like the "I will take my toys and go home" appoarch, I get that from my 3 year old all the time 😉
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Level matching interconnects and power cords? Again, it was a random quick reference, the first I found. I'm at work. The same Head-Fi poster apparently believes coat hangers can be soldered so I'll take his analysis as well with a grain of salt.
He could tell us, but then he'd have to kill us.
And unfortunately, he can't escape his basement to perform these meaningful tests either. So here we are, stuck in this recursive loop.
Markus, have you ever seen the movie "Groundhog day"? Groundhogs live underground too, almost like a basement....😀
You guys are arguing against the validilty of DBTs to argue against them would imply you have a better appoarch.
Otherwise your opinion is rather useless in improving how we should listening to conclude if products have difference.
If you do not care about proper listening then again why post at all? Again, that is the definition of a troll. You obviously do not care about advancing the discussion.
You says something sucks, I ask how to improve it and you reply with some redirect on how I can not listen.....sigh. Please put me ignore. your intelligence (or lackof in your posts) gives me a headache 😀
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