Not so crazy, really. Fifteen years and 50 pounds ago when I was involved in competitive cycling, I experienced exactly what you are talking about when riding time trials. During the last kilometer of a 40K time trial I was often so far into oxygen debt that colors were various shades of gray and my vision was limited to a narrow tunnel with only the finish line sharp in my field of vision. The human body has a unique set of compensitory mechanisms that come into play during differing stressors. I would not be surprised to learn that the autonomic nervous sytem could influence results in a forced listening test as opposed to a casual one.
Dave
Thanks Panicos. There was only one point intended, the idea that people who don't accept what science has to say about reality, have a reason for doing so. I think that reason is fear.
To accept the scientific explanation of the universe, one has to abandon some of what our senses tell us. The earth is not flat, it is not the center of our solar system, and so on.
Some of what science tells us is quite contrary to what seems natural to us, but you can't just decide to accept some scientific truths but reject others on the basis of your personal feelings, which some cable believers seem to be doing.
Before I get jumped on, as far as cables go, all of the above is based on my opinion that "cable sound" if attributed to the physical cable is at the moment completely un-scientific.
Oh your questions..."What is science if not the completion of the efforts of the human brain?" I don't think it is completed yet!
"Human brain will always be the limit of science." Interesting. Who knows?
Uhm, not by me. A PROPERLY constructed DBT is not a contest, but a learning experience and can be a very valuable tool in developing equipment and listening environments.
The biggest problem that I have seen with DBT's and/or ABX testing is poor testing setup and implementation. Using equipment that does not exceed the expressed subject of the test is just bad science. My favorite is using an amplifier with half a dozen electrolytic coupling capacitors in the signal path the "test" the audible differences in film capacitors. Not very smart and extremely poor methodology.
Dave
Let me put it this way, the existence of technology and science is a result of human ability, not the other way round.
Did these audiophiles have any previous experience of a DBT? I guess not.
Then perhaps you need to put the cart before the horse, learn as much about blind tests as you can, reassess whether psychological factors were actually eliminated from your casual listening, then see if things are still as unexplainable as you believe.
Member
Joined 2002
You could say that the existence of some Human abilies is the result of technology and science, but I didn't.
Maybe the word "completion" was confusing or wrong.What I mean is that science reaches heights and stays there till new evidence come forth.I don't believe it is completed yet,either.🙂
No, of course not.
Hence when they went in they had no anxiety at all.
Therefore their extreme difficulty in hearing differences were not a result of the type of reasoning champ has been giving. (it may have been due to no experience with dbt's say, another issue. Just that it was not a case of 'stressed therefore could not hear properly')
Then we are back to 'no experience' ...so? You have been unable to show me how that is a factor (I DO accept that it would be a factor for TG, how could it not after this thread?? So get in and really practice under the conditions TG!!).
I just_do_NOT_get_it. When I see them I can hear the difference, when I can't then I am so stressed or un-used to the conditions (not seeing) that my abilities fail.
I am talking about 'run of the mill guys' who just happened to come along to one of these tests I am referring to that we have setup (BTW, finally remembered what the preamp was I have been referring to, symphonia was the name). They do not know they are supposed to be under stress as you guys are saying, they don't know that their lack of training is a hindrance, all they are doing is what they normally do, come along and have a listen.
children I guess you'd call them, the innocents.
These tests happened to be at a dealers showroom, so occurred under exactly the same circumstances as any normal visit to the showroom to audition would be...except THIS time no knowledge of what was what they happened to be listening to. And that changed everything?
And to those of you not there, the only reason it must have influenced them is because the results were against your expectations. And KCM wonders aloud about just how we can be influenced by our preconceptions...???? sheesh. Andre showed that by his reaction to my report.
Champ, you did not answer my question.
If TG practices, and says he has mastered the dbt format and listening, would you accept that if he fails he actually failed?
In other words, is there any point where the creation of excuses and reasons would end?
See, speaking only for me perhaps, I have not painted myself into a corner, as the ONLY thing I hold to be true is that 'any differences that exist are outside of normal fully understood EE theory' is false. It is no skin off my nose in that sense, I just don't buy the lies and crap used to sell cables. they are simply not worth the time or expense for a given audio result, they contribute so little if anything.
But you guys seem to have staked out a position that as fredex ponders where it is a threat if you were to be found wrong. Fear?
But then again, you cannot really lose I guess. If TG fails then you can simply shrug, and say 'oh well, he couldn't hear it like he thought...but I can'.
Or you can blame dbts. or stress. or the sun being in the seventh house. or something. anything.
EDIT Oh, AJ, thanks for the data. I guess in other circumstances we would normally declare our bias and financial interests, why not in this debate too? Would be good to know who stands to make a buck from cable sales......in order to judge the objectiveness of their posts
That is rather glaring isn't it?
Complete disarray, DBT's good, DBT's bad, Silver wires good, Silver wires bad, This equipment "good", That equipment "bad", I can hear this, I can hear that, Cheap, Expensive, etc, etc, etc.
No consensus whatsoever as to what is good/bad, what sounds like what, why, how, etc.
It's like whack-a-mole trying to sort it all out 🙂
And admit they were duped or their hearing isn't as good as the other audiophile who claimed he could "hear" this and that from said cables?
Hardly. Against human nature to do so.
Ok, I'll tell you, since you haven't figured it out yet. Land lines, Cel and VOI, telecom, all developed using DBT.
Now about you electrical evidence for synergy. Care to present it for review?
Presenting your electrical evidence is dependent upon my hearing? That's an odd correlation.
I posted some Klippel hear difference tests earlier that contradict your thought. Did you try them yourself?
I certainly can't "hear differences" that are only imagined by someone else, but if they are real, I can. That is necessary as a DIY speaker builder. You too might be able to hear them in my speakers, as they create real sound waves in a real soundfield. Stop by a DIY event some time and bring the best creation of your hearing ability and we'll compare. Sound reasonable?
Gosh, is that what 'we all said'? Do you need 'we all' to sing from the same song book for comprehension? Honestly, some of you express a perspective on a disparate group of individuals that makes question if the end of your driveways aren't lit by little painted ceramic audiophiles holding aloft a 300B. And you expect to be taken seriously?
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