Really? Bruno agrees that cables produce a fair amount of harmonic distortion?
I'll be sure and ask him about that.
se
It is true that your cables were not BAD examples, and the distortion, if any, was minimal. I have other examples, however, that measure differently. By the way, your soldering is very good, better than most.
Hi,
O.K., fair enough.
So what cable drawing process is causing this directionality and to what is it attributable exactly then?
Cheers, 😉
P.S. It's Bruno Putzeys, Steve.
O.K., fair enough.
So what cable drawing process is causing this directionality and to what is it attributable exactly then?
Cheers, 😉
P.S. It's Bruno Putzeys, Steve.
Whether it is drawing, or compressing it through a die, I don't know the mechanism. Of course, for many years, I could hardly believe it, either. I think that it compares to serving a good wine at a certain temperature. If you actually look at a book of electron photographs of metal specimens, you might be surprised as to their complexity and even mobility of some components within the specimen.
Hi,
Thank you.
I am well aware of electron migration and that kind of stuff, even posted an animated .gif file of it here some years ago showing a shot of a recording on an electron microscope.
IIRC the work was done at the Instute of Material Research at Diepenbeek, Belgium by (and I'll all the academic titles out) Mr. W. Deceuninck.
At that time we met on a regular basis and discussed wire with one of the directors of Hudson International (NJ?) whom were willing to do small production runs of the purest silver and gold wire for us to test.
I'm not sure if anyone actually did some measurements of the samples but as far directivity is concerned I gave up breaking my head over it as to my ears the finished cable sounded great either way.
Anyhow, this is in the league of the topflight systems and super golden ears.
Rest assured, I was met with the same skepsis from the same guys as you are now almost ten years ago......
Cheers, 😉
Thank you.
I am well aware of electron migration and that kind of stuff, even posted an animated .gif file of it here some years ago showing a shot of a recording on an electron microscope.
IIRC the work was done at the Instute of Material Research at Diepenbeek, Belgium by (and I'll all the academic titles out) Mr. W. Deceuninck.
At that time we met on a regular basis and discussed wire with one of the directors of Hudson International (NJ?) whom were willing to do small production runs of the purest silver and gold wire for us to test.
I'm not sure if anyone actually did some measurements of the samples but as far directivity is concerned I gave up breaking my head over it as to my ears the finished cable sounded great either way.
Anyhow, this is in the league of the topflight systems and super golden ears.
Rest assured, I was met with the same skepsis from the same guys as you are now almost ten years ago......
Cheers, 😉
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Blast from the past! SE wrote me to ask if I would come here. So:
My goodness is this thing still going on?!!
Unbalanced cables are notoriously sensitive to contact noise in connectors (what with the same connection being responsible for equalising ground potentials and providing a reference for the signal), and RCA connectors are notoriously liable to develop such trouble. What I remember John explaining during our chat was that somehow his setup highlighted these. The unbalanced I/O of the AP test sets are floating so such problems would not ordinarily arise.
During my measurements in 2004 -done by request of SE who wanted a second opinion whilst being embroiled in a discussion with John- I still occasionally got distortion but when that happened I always checked solder joints and cleaned the connectors which invariably solved it. Again, in a system with non-floating I/O this might still not cut it.
So where John and I agree is that these (and some other) problems are real. His test setup was not so much different from the kind of condition under which these cables would be normally used. The worst thing you could say is that it did not allow proper control of all variables involved. After all, a layer of oxide on the connector shell belongs neither to the cable, nor to the test equipment. Same for a circulating current. But that does not mean the readings are meaningless. The same problems arise whenever an RCA cable (and occasionally XLR, see "pin 1 problems") sits between two boxes.
Where John and I take different routes is not in the physics but in emphasis on where to start working the problem. I'll first try to address it electronically (design circuits which are minimally sensitive to anything a nonideal cable might throw at it). His is first to attack the connection (use cables & connectors that don't cause problems for most circuits). This is as literally as I can remember what we said.
Both go a long way, but for perfect results you need to do both of course. You can't design an input that'll successfully recover an audio signal transmitted along two parallel wires, and you can't design cable that will prevent hum in an unbalanced connection with a ground loop and stamped sheet-steel pcb-mounted RCA connectors.
Now note that I didn't bother reading much of this thread. The lone fact that nearly 6 years after all this I could still suddenly be yanked back into the same discussion says something. I hope you'll understand that I'm not going to follow up on this thread, but I hope that this reply will be helpful.
My goodness is this thing still going on?!!
Unbalanced cables are notoriously sensitive to contact noise in connectors (what with the same connection being responsible for equalising ground potentials and providing a reference for the signal), and RCA connectors are notoriously liable to develop such trouble. What I remember John explaining during our chat was that somehow his setup highlighted these. The unbalanced I/O of the AP test sets are floating so such problems would not ordinarily arise.
During my measurements in 2004 -done by request of SE who wanted a second opinion whilst being embroiled in a discussion with John- I still occasionally got distortion but when that happened I always checked solder joints and cleaned the connectors which invariably solved it. Again, in a system with non-floating I/O this might still not cut it.
So where John and I agree is that these (and some other) problems are real. His test setup was not so much different from the kind of condition under which these cables would be normally used. The worst thing you could say is that it did not allow proper control of all variables involved. After all, a layer of oxide on the connector shell belongs neither to the cable, nor to the test equipment. Same for a circulating current. But that does not mean the readings are meaningless. The same problems arise whenever an RCA cable (and occasionally XLR, see "pin 1 problems") sits between two boxes.
Where John and I take different routes is not in the physics but in emphasis on where to start working the problem. I'll first try to address it electronically (design circuits which are minimally sensitive to anything a nonideal cable might throw at it). His is first to attack the connection (use cables & connectors that don't cause problems for most circuits). This is as literally as I can remember what we said.
Both go a long way, but for perfect results you need to do both of course. You can't design an input that'll successfully recover an audio signal transmitted along two parallel wires, and you can't design cable that will prevent hum in an unbalanced connection with a ground loop and stamped sheet-steel pcb-mounted RCA connectors.
Now note that I didn't bother reading much of this thread. The lone fact that nearly 6 years after all this I could still suddenly be yanked back into the same discussion says something. I hope you'll understand that I'm not going to follow up on this thread, but I hope that this reply will be helpful.
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Indeed. No trace of influence of the wire material. As many have said here, the single act of unplugging and re-plugging the connector is enough to make a lot of difference, and that is confirmed.
Well, so far for exotic cable.
jd
Sensible chap, that Bruno
Hmm - Think I'll go for a walk on the beach now.
I'm pretty sure that'll do me more good than a new piece of wire.
i.e. The actual wire had nothing to do with it.
Wow, he has a life too!
Hmm - Think I'll go for a walk on the beach now.
I'm pretty sure that'll do me more good than a new piece of wire.
Yes. Oui. Da. Cane. Si. Ja. Hai.
What is it about Mogami wire/cable that can't be found in the Belden catalog? 😕
Please share some specifics.
What is better out there than Mogami? Again, please be specific. Are you saying that folks like Andre need cables exceeding Mogami resolution to hear specific "details", "soundstage focus", etc., etc?
I have found it impossible to read this whole thread. I would suggest a simple cheap test for speaker cable. All of this can be bought by the foot at home depot probably for less than $25:
Category 5 network cable (strip and use one twisted pair per side)
Zip cord (with lots of strands if possible)
14 gauge solid romex
I would think that spending an afternoon testing with these would convince you one way or the other. I am still not clear if all the people who believe that cables don't make a difference have done a test for themselves. Select someone who enjoys music but doesn't have an opinion to help you and switch back and forth. You might play some music for him before hand and point out things like sound stage, etc. so he is familiar with what makes a good system good.
Also, after reading about the listeners trained by Revel, it is obvious that at least 20% of people would be incapable of hearing the difference if there is one:
Revel Ultima Studio Loudspeakers - AVRev.com
Category 5 network cable (strip and use one twisted pair per side)
Zip cord (with lots of strands if possible)
14 gauge solid romex
I would think that spending an afternoon testing with these would convince you one way or the other. I am still not clear if all the people who believe that cables don't make a difference have done a test for themselves. Select someone who enjoys music but doesn't have an opinion to help you and switch back and forth. You might play some music for him before hand and point out things like sound stage, etc. so he is familiar with what makes a good system good.
Also, after reading about the listeners trained by Revel, it is obvious that at least 20% of people would be incapable of hearing the difference if there is one:
Revel Ultima Studio Loudspeakers - AVRev.com
Why doomed? I thought I proposed a good compromise. You pick ten wires and we give them back randomized, no one needs observe, influence, or interfere. No rules on this one, you can even look. You could even appoint Jack Bybee and Charles Hansen as helpers. There must be someone you know who can "nail" the directionality.
Member
Joined 2002
Thats when you put the snake oil on right ?
Maybe every one should just buy these cables. 😱😱
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vend...blacksheep-kable-demo-test-4.html#post2047564
Member
Joined 2002
🙄 because they are sooooo good, they have this special unique wiring braiding style with super good wire silver coated and the connectors great, i've heard responses say that they improve the bass and the sound of amplifiers
😱😱😱😱
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