Got to agree with SY on this one.
We all make mistakes. But that doesnt excuse not reading and understanding for yourself.
SY has been more than gracious. I hope this little episode can be forgiven and forgotten.
Still looking forward to a real DBT test............
We all make mistakes. But that doesnt excuse not reading and understanding for yourself.
SY has been more than gracious. I hope this little episode can be forgiven and forgotten.
Still looking forward to a real DBT test............
Does anyone know of a reference to a double blind trial of speaker cables that clearly showed people could hear a difference?
I only know of three references to blind trials where no differences could be determined.
This one: Audiophiles can't tell the difference between Monster Cable and coat hangers -- Engadget
where no one could differentiate Monster cable from a coathanger.
This one, an 8.9 mb download: http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Wired Wisdom.pdf
An article by Tom Nousaine, published in Canadian publication Sound & Vision.
And this one: Speaker Wire
Wherein Gordon Gow, the President of McIntosh Laboratory used to debunk the claims.
I only know of three references to blind trials where no differences could be determined.
This one: Audiophiles can't tell the difference between Monster Cable and coat hangers -- Engadget
where no one could differentiate Monster cable from a coathanger.
This one, an 8.9 mb download: http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Wired Wisdom.pdf
An article by Tom Nousaine, published in Canadian publication Sound & Vision.
And this one: Speaker Wire
Wherein Gordon Gow, the President of McIntosh Laboratory used to debunk the claims.
Ok, so where is the link (as requested on more than one occasion previously) to these tests???
Did it sound anything like this guy?
Glad you didn't allow an anonymous (no caller ID?) caller to torpedo the test Tom. So far you are the only one willing stepping up to the plate (unlike many other here and elsewhere). Get a little practice in if you can and call SY whenever your ready.
Btw, does the Mastersound have pre-outs of any type (main, subwoofer, etc.), or just line inputs and speaker outs?
cheers,
AJ
no wuckin furries TG, I myself often grab the wrong end of the stick....without the excuse of people ringing me!!
As long as we get ONE test out of ten thousand posts I will be happy 😀
Re previous tests, a good one is 'results of a controlled cab test' (title??) in the $20k plus section of AVS. (I hope) (think chris wiggles was the thread starter)
Why is it good?? Cause it was another one when the person was 'certain' of audible differences between 28K cables and a set of monster cables. In fact it was a prepatory test prior to the million dollar challenge.
He failed.
And I doubt any criticisms of the room or gear can be employed.
So does the person who posts 'post 10 000' win a prize????
Very much looking forward to the findings, whatever they are, when this test goes ahead.
Let's hope it is as rigorous as it can be.
Not that it will change anyones mind!!
Thanks all, have enjoyed it (as silly as that sounds)
EDIT as AJ says, well done TG. You are the only one (bar geography) to put his cahoonies on the line.
As long as we get ONE test out of ten thousand posts I will be happy 😀
Re previous tests, a good one is 'results of a controlled cab test' (title??) in the $20k plus section of AVS. (I hope) (think chris wiggles was the thread starter)
Why is it good?? Cause it was another one when the person was 'certain' of audible differences between 28K cables and a set of monster cables. In fact it was a prepatory test prior to the million dollar challenge.
He failed.
And I doubt any criticisms of the room or gear can be employed.
So does the person who posts 'post 10 000' win a prize????
Very much looking forward to the findings, whatever they are, when this test goes ahead.
Let's hope it is as rigorous as it can be.
Not that it will change anyones mind!!
Thanks all, have enjoyed it (as silly as that sounds)
EDIT as AJ says, well done TG. You are the only one (bar geography) to put his cahoonies on the line.
"A friend" ?
Seems to be a movie freak; doesn´t that one reminds to a movie staring Michael Douglas, Demi Moore and Donald Sutherland? 🙂
@ AJinFLA,
sorry if i missed you previous questions, but where do you got the impression that these tests were published?
Wishes
Seems to be a movie freak; doesn´t that one reminds to a movie staring Michael Douglas, Demi Moore and Donald Sutherland? 🙂
@ AJinFLA,
sorry if i missed you previous questions, but where do you got the impression that these tests were published?
Wishes
Ok, so where is the link (as requested on more than one occasion previously) to these tests???
Did it sound anything like this guy?
Glad you didn't allow an anonymous (no caller ID?) caller to torpedo the test Tom. So far you are the only one willing stepping up to the plate (unlike many other here and elsewhere). Get a little practice in if you can and call SY whenever your ready. Btw, does the Mastersound have pre-outs of any type (main, subwoofer, etc.), or just line inputs and speaker outs?
cheers,
AJ
AJ, for once I enjoyed your humor. No it didn't sound like the grinch on the phone and I don't have caller ID but, then again I don't have a cell phone either. Whether or not the test is torpedoed will depend on SY at this point. I'm still ready to proceed with the test and I'll be doing some practice DBTs no matter what happens here. The Mastersound has no pre-outs of any type but, it has a direct in so an extrenal preamp or a source with a volume control can be used!
Brett said:
Brett, regardless of how carefully you believe I should be reading I believe SY's tone in how he addresses me, my beliefs and my equipment has changed. Even now the tone of SY's response is " When one questions religious beliefs..."after I apologized! I find that a bit demeaning. How are my beliefs "religious?" What if I should pass that test and prove I hear differences? Will my beliefs remain "religious" ones? This isn't the response of an open-minded person.
champ04 said:
Champ how am I to read and understand what I just don't understand? As I've stated previously I'm not technically oriented. I didn't know source impedance from output impedance and find it a bit amusing that after explaining I'm a technically illiterate, that Brett would choose to explain what these are by using the even more technical terms such as source Z is and output Z! I actually had to look up what Z was to make sure Brett was still speaking about impedances! Asking me to understand technical jargon is akin to my asking you to read and understand japanese, and then later when you make a mistake tell you that doesn't excuse your not reading and understanding for it yourself. However, like you, I too, hope this little episode can be forgiven and forgotten.
Although I'm actually very surprised at how this all came to an end, I have to be honest and say I was forewarned via emails from a couple other members from here and audio asylum that this is exactly how it would come to an end and no DBT would ever be done. I was just hoping they were wrong. I'm hoping we can all allow bygones to be bygones. We can all stop pointing fingers and assigning blame and we can go back to how things were before. Two people (SY and myself) who genuinely wanted a valid DBT to be done. This is a subject that demands further exploration! So, "if" SY is still willing to come to my home and "if" SY thinks my components pass the muster, I'm still willing to submit to a DBT.
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
Before this thread closes I wanted to say that I’m sorry Curley was banned. He at least (I thought) made it clear that he would not trust short term tests i.e. no claims of “walking into the room and telling in 5 seconds”. Mr. Fremer’s failure certainly happened after about as much work as I would spend. If this does not indicate subtle at best so be it.
As for the Randi challenge. He is only human and IMO acted impulsively based on his beliefs. Why on earth he did not negotiate out in a more sensible manner is beyond me. I would simply said that after consulting with my experts each set up will need to be response equalized by E. Brad Meyer and his team of 1/10 octave stacked equalizers.
As I pointed out in another thread, a listening session between a nice 6DJ8 preamp and a JFET one with 16dB lower noise floor is a fun exercise and nothing more, it is by nature "sighted".
As for the Randi challenge. He is only human and IMO acted impulsively based on his beliefs. Why on earth he did not negotiate out in a more sensible manner is beyond me. I would simply said that after consulting with my experts each set up will need to be response equalized by E. Brad Meyer and his team of 1/10 octave stacked equalizers.
As I pointed out in another thread, a listening session between a nice 6DJ8 preamp and a JFET one with 16dB lower noise floor is a fun exercise and nothing more, it is by nature "sighted".
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TG, you're still not reading what I wrote.
Take a deep breath, jettison your paranoia, and go back to being the open-minded, adventurous fellow you were before you got flustered by some moron calling you from nowhere.
Take a deep breath, jettison your paranoia, and go back to being the open-minded, adventurous fellow you were before you got flustered by some moron calling you from nowhere.
Since the first test yesterday morning, I've done a number of combinations, and yes, that was one of them. Actually, no matter what the combination, I hear no difference at all with speaker wire changes. Now I admit, that result was what I expected (hence the benefit of a DBT).
I guess my larger question is the point of your test request in the first place. My results really have no validity. I am confident you won't respond by saying, "well, if that's the result you got, I guess I was wrong, there is no audible difference between 12 and 16 awg cables at normal listening levels."
If you won't take that stance, then you either have to say "your system sucks" which I don't think it does, "you don't have golden ears" which is a cop-out, or "the test is inconclusive", to which I repeat my question:
what was the purpose of your test request?
Hey Tubeguy - I went back over the posts in question.
From what I read, SY is not condemning outright your preamp. Having an INPUT impedance of 100K is completely acceptable. What he seems legitimately worried about is that you might own some strange piece of gear that is unstable or has very high OUTPUT impedance. That would certainly skew results.
Most good sources have a low output impedance. Low output impedance driving high input impedance is generally accepted as good engineering practice. Most audio gear adheres to this rule.
If someone walks into a test using gear that is poorly (or even just oddly) designed, he would want to know it. The unusual design could easily explain why differences are heard. The cable test should take place on gear the is designed to typical good practices.
I do not believe the "religious" comment was aimed at you, but at your mystery caller.
SY, please excuse me if I have put words in your mouth. That's just how I read the exchange.
From what I read, SY is not condemning outright your preamp. Having an INPUT impedance of 100K is completely acceptable. What he seems legitimately worried about is that you might own some strange piece of gear that is unstable or has very high OUTPUT impedance. That would certainly skew results.
Most good sources have a low output impedance. Low output impedance driving high input impedance is generally accepted as good engineering practice. Most audio gear adheres to this rule.
If someone walks into a test using gear that is poorly (or even just oddly) designed, he would want to know it. The unusual design could easily explain why differences are heard. The cable test should take place on gear the is designed to typical good practices.
I do not believe the "religious" comment was aimed at you, but at your mystery caller.
SY, please excuse me if I have put words in your mouth. That's just how I read the exchange.
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No problem, pano.
Nothing wrong with the 800R source impedance of the CD player. Does anyone have a schematic of the output stage of it? I'm curious about whether there's any potential stability issues (which again can be easily addressed in test design).
Nothing wrong with the 800R source impedance of the CD player. Does anyone have a schematic of the output stage of it? I'm curious about whether there's any potential stability issues (which again can be easily addressed in test design).
SY, I want to forget whatever went astray and allow bygones to be bygones. I'm open-minded enough to believe everything can still work out and I hope that it does. Let's go back to how things were before. Two audio hobbyists with opposing point-of-views on a topic who are willing to come together and do what it takes to discover the truth of the matter!
As I stated previously this is a subject that demands further exploration. This exploration needs to be done by people who aren't trying to push an agenda. It demands open-minded folks from both points-of-view. These must be the type of people for whom the knowing the truth is the most valuable commodity, even if doing so means learning their beliefs are incorrect!
SY you've asked me to take a deep breath, jettison my paranoia, and go back to being the open-minded, adventurous fellow I was before my "friend' called last night. Heck, that's an easy thing for me to do! Never in my wildest dreams did I think AJinFLA and I would ever be communicating amicably on the subject of audio, and yet here we are on diyaudio.com doing that very thing. That alone should show you how easily I can let things go. So if you're still willing to come to my home, I'm still willing to submit to a DBT.
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
I never said I wasn't going to come, assuming that I was still welcome.
If people are too insecure in their own beliefs or too invested in their religion to step up to the plate in public and have their views challenged, they can be safely ignored, and I strongly suggest you do so.
If people are too insecure in their own beliefs or too invested in their religion to step up to the plate in public and have their views challenged, they can be safely ignored, and I strongly suggest you do so.
The end of .....the world
Magura 🙂
EDIT: At least to some 😀
🙂 Hey, we're still going!!! I guess the world not flat after all!
So Jakob, all you have to show after all this banter, are claims of tests?
Hmmm, that certainly fits the framework of the thread rather well.
It isn't over yet Tom. SY is willing. It's up to you to get a little practice in, till you are comfortable and ready to go. SY will be there and if you want, so will I.
It sounds basically like a test of IC's between CD player and (integrated) amp. That seems fairly straightforward.
Indeed. Andy G's silence there is deafening. Btw, next time you communicate with him, tell him no more prank calls to Tom eh?
He realized this wasn't the 60's.
What he really meant was, the thread will end in One...Hundred...BILLION POSTS
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