I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jump to Latest
#9,941
SY said:
Unfortunately, they don't give specs for the ICs, but it may not matter. What's the source component driving the IC and what's at the terminating end?
Click to expand...
Are you going to give the cables a capacitance measurement? After all seems pointless to 'prove' audibility between two cables if there is enough C to make an easily distinguishable difference from that alone.
 
#9,943
terry j said:
how do you measure C of cables? It's not like sticking a normal cap in a meter is it??
Click to expand...

Actually, pretty much.
You'd probably have to remove the connector from one end so that one end was open. But aside from that you can get a pretty straight forward reading from a quality multimeter.

Also, it really "shouldnt" matter for this test. But just so that everything is above board, skeptics should know that the Stealth cable that TG will be using is a carbon based conductor, not a metalic one. And as such may have very unique LCR numbers. R, for sure. Bottom line is that it will be very linear and "normal" in the audible bandwidth.

This shouldnt change things since the hardest of the die hard skeptics claim no audible differences what-so-ever. Never-the-less, it should be noted up front.
 
#9,944
Tony said:
now where did you learn that? dc is dc, ac is ac...it is as simple as that.....come on, you don't bend the laws of physics if it suits your belief....
Click to expand...

Not trying to bend the laws of physics, fact is at low frequencies the effect of L and C is so small it can be ignored, thus the impedance of the cable at LF will be the 'same' as dc resistance.

While you are so critical, how long do you have to measure a dc level to decide whether it is dc or ac?
 
#9,946
Brett said:
Are you going to give the cables a capacitance measurement? After all seems pointless to 'prove' audibility between two cables if there is enough C to make an easily distinguishable difference from that alone.
Click to expand...

Probably not, unless the frequency responses or levels are significantly different. Really, what you care about is the EFFECT of the capacitance on response (assuming stable, competently designed components), not the capacitance itself. Roadmap, road, and all of that. That's stuff I'm trying to scope out in advance- if TG has some idiot-designed preamp that's marginally stable and has 100k of source impedance, then indeed any "test" of ICs is useless- one is measuring designer incompetence, not wire.

Sadly, it is FAR more likely to get an incompetently designed $10,000 piece of gear than a $500 piece of gear. Assuming that TG has something decent (like one of Curl's preamps), then the capacitance of the IC can be all over the place with minimal-to-no effect.
 
#9,947

your signature:"In audio it is so easy to think you hear a difference........."as it s in real life that your ultra sweet coffee(a few spoons of sugar)....is bitter?
Why the hell audio is different than coffee?😀 Doesn't psychology exists for coffee?

Merry Christmas to all of us.
 
#9,948
thetubeguy1954 said:
<snip>
What I'm claiming is I've trained my ear/brain to notice when something has changed sonically.
Click to expand...

You´ll soon notice that the more difficult part of this test protocol is to detect that _nothing_ has changed sonically in some trials.

Unfortunately that is the part that nobody will believe until having done a blind test according to a test protocol like SY´s.

<snip>
So I'll do a few dry runs here at home with friend and try and work through the anxiety of taking a test.
Click to expand...

That is absolutely the right idea. 🙂

The anxiety is one side of the medal the other is the "detection of sameness" under test condition.

The most critical part in a (blind) test is to remain in a state of awareness; if you concentrate to much on a more technical way of listening the probability is higher that less areas of your brain are involved and that is something to avoid.

Wishes
 
#9,949
SY said:
<snip>
Assuming you do distinguish and I have done my job properly, this would be eminently publishable. The thing we're testing is not "can the average Joe distinguish between two competent interconnects?" but rather, "can ANYONE distinguish between two competent interconnects?" Frankly, I hope you do; a nice JAES paper would look good on my resume.😀
<snip>
Click to expand...

If you´re not going to turn it into a double blind.....

At least you should correct the number of positive answers needed for your proposed SL.

Wishes
 
#9,950
sy said:
unfortunately, they don't give specs for the ics, but it may not matter. What's the source component driving the ic and what's at the terminating end?

I absolutely encourage you to practice. I want to you to have the best possible shot at proving your point.
Click to expand...

SY hello my friend. I'm surprised you're here today. Allow me to wish you, the other diy audio members, your families & those you love,
MERRY CHRISTMAS!​

Allow me to provide you with the facts about my audio system. My source is an Italian Goldenote Stibbert CD player, as seen here: Goldenote. The sound beyond We'll be using the single-ended RCA inputs and outputs on all components.

My amplifier is also Italian. It's a Mastersound Reference 845 which you can see here: SCHEDA TECNICA

My speakers use an open-source cabinet design called the Sachiko that can be seen on Frugal Horn website: http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/download/Sachiko-map-1v01-220309.pdf

I loaded Fostex, limited edition, FE2066es-r drivers, which can be seen here (please forgive the japanese to english translation) Google Translate

The speakers are a very benign load. I run speakers wires to binding posts and from there it's only wire until the wire terminates at the drivers connecting posts. This is a crossoverless design.

As you know my refernece ICs are now Stealth Audio Sakra ICs. These replaced Mike Rispoli Gen VII ICs. I still use Mike Rispoli Gen VII speaker wires. I'm expecting some Stealth Audio Dream speaker wires to audtion sometime soon.

Last but not least I use Stealth Audio M-21 Super power cords, which can be seen here: STEALTH audio cables

SY you're the first wire non-believer who I've come to trust. Although I know that you, like myself, have distinct beliefs and biases on the wires issue. I don't believe you're a religous zealot who has an agenda to push but, rather like myself, I believe you're open-minded and just wants to learn what the truth is i.e., can anyone actually hear differeneces in different ICs in a controlled DBT?

I truly appreciate your wanting me to have the best possible shot at proving my point-of-view on this topic. I honestly believe that I'll pass this test but, I'm going to do some practice DBT's with some audio friends to help alleviate the performance anxiety that arises with any test I have to take. So we'll see what happens. Who knows you might just have a paper to publish in the JAES after all! You just better be sure to mention my name "if" you do!!!!! 😀

Thetubeguy1954

~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
 
#9,952
SY said:
Probably not, unless the frequency responses or levels are significantly different. Really, what you care about is the EFFECT of the capacitance on response (assuming stable, competently designed components), not the capacitance itself. Roadmap, road, and all of that. That's stuff I'm trying to scope out in advance- if TG has some idiot-designed preamp that's marginally stable and has 100k of source impedance, then indeed any "test" of ICs is useless- one is measuring designer incompetence, not wire.
Click to expand...
That's why I was asking. No point in proving audibility if it's simply the source and load Z and C interaction, after all none of that is new nor in question.

SY said:
Sadly, it is FAR more likely to get an incompetently designed $10,000 piece of gear than a $500 piece of gear.
Click to expand...
True.
 
#9,958
Andre Visser said:
I've heard the effects of cable diameter long before reading these papers, the group delay graphs happen to correspond closely with differences I hear therefore I named it as a possible explanation. The two questions are aimed at how varying group delay might influence perceived sound.
Click to expand...

It all hinges on whether you can actually hear what you say you can hear.
You are not required to provide an explaination just proof that you can hear something.
If tubeguy can prove something maybe you can too. 🙂
 
#9,959
The Paulinator said:
I just posted this reply on another thread and it sparked my interest again in what people believe about the subject. Please read my whole post before you reply. I am not trying to be contentious, so please don't overreact like some people do when I suggest that their expensive cables may not be worth the money.

I am going to very mild-mannerdly make the statement that I have come to my own personal conclusion that speaker wire matters to the sound quality of your speakers about as much as a big pile of baked beans.

I used to be a beleiver. I THOUGHT I heard such undeniable differences between various speaker cables and interconnects, until one day I was doing a comparison between a 1 meter, 500 dollar cable and a 25 foot Radio Shack gold series cable. i listened to my favorite tracks with the Radio Shack cable, and then got up to swap the cables. In one of those weird brain farts, I changed CD's as usual, but without realizing it, forgot to go back to the expensive cable.

I sat down and listened to track after track, amazed at the better sound quality of the better cables that I, in fact, hadn't even hooked up. The highs were smoother, the bass was tighter, and the mids were more natural sounding. When I went up to change CD's, I realized my mistake. Dumbfounded, I shuddered at the thought that all the money i had put into cables might be wasted. I went back and did the most open-minded, honest listening of my life. Being for the first time in doubt of the importance of good cables, I wanted to reassure myself that my money was well spent. I listened for literally hours. Replaying tracks and litening to each individual part, each instrument, over and over again. I listened for improvements in soundstage, clarity, definition, anything that might prove my money was well spent. I wanted to hear a difference, but for the first time, I opened my ears to both cables. I didn't want to hear a difference so badly that I pretended to, or told myself that I heard a difference. I really wanted to know.


I had come to the conclusion that I couldn't hear a difference.... at least at the moment. I decided to try to prove that a difference could be heard somehow, maybe just not by me. I was at the time a salesperson at a respectable audio boutique where we were absolutely obsessed with cables. We put more emphasis on cables than on the equipment itself, mostly because we felt that it didn't matter what equipment you got if your interconnects were going to ruin it. For fun, I took a few employees into a room and sat them in front of a pair of Energy Veritas Floorstanding Speakers (2.8's I believe, the older, GOOD ones), running off of an Adcom stack. I showed them the two cables and asked them to tell me which sounded better. I first played the "low end" cables and listened to my fellow employees reem them for their lack of detail, soundstage, their harsh highs, and the other usual retorts. I then went behind the stack and unplugged the RS cables, so my colleagues could hear the "switch", and then put the same cables back in again. I played the same track again. Suddenly the highs were smoother, and the bass had this great power that it had lacked before. The soundstage was HUGE.....according to my subjects. After I hit stop, I notified the group of my plot. This was first met by silence, and then every single one of them left the room pissed at me, accusing me of trying to bring down the sales of the store.

After this experience I have tried numerous times to see if anyone can hear a difference between cables. I of course now do it without tricks. I simply don't reveal the good from the bad until after the subject had stated which demo they thought was using the high end cables. I think a cable costing 500 dollars of even just a few hundred should sound significantly better than a 20 dollar cable, enough that you should recognize it everytime in a blindfolded test. Never has anyone gotten 5 out of 5 in my tests.

I hear that Richard Clark does a test like this at autosound 2000 and nobody has ever gotten a perfect score. He is also a disbeleiver in the need for high end cables.

I encourage people to take their high end cables and have someone do a blindfolded test on them with some radio shack specials.

Remember the story of The Emperor's new clothes, and don't feel bad or left out if you don't hear a difference. Nobody ever seems to under these conditions.

I'd be happy to hear anyone's input on the subject.
Click to expand...


I can
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom