I tried it, and couldn't tell the difference. Is your next post the one where you tell me my system is incapable of resolving detail, or that I'm just too simple-minded to be able to hear the difference?
No,I believe you.Can you tell us though what the system and the cables were?Just curious
No mean to offence,but I will tell you the findings after tomorrow,when I do this test to my 80 years old father,without even telling him what he will be testing.His system costs around $1100. I will PM them to you.
His system😛hilips cd player,NAD amp and bookshelf JM lab 2-way bi-wireable speakers.CD cable is a diy(not from him🙂 ) using twisted OFC wires,and speaker cables cheap qed biwiring.I will only change the tweeter wire for him.
I will play a simple violin cd for him,as he used to play the violin for 70 years(He learned that from his father).Just to help him a little with some familiar music.
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Member
Joined 2002
Can adders multiply? Yes, on a log table 😀
Sorry for off-topic. Merry Christmas all!
jd
This text below figure 14: "In practice it is questionable whether delays of the magnitudes shown would ever be audible." Seems reasonable, given the graph shows maximum delays of some 50 nano seconds, with the delays starting above 15kHz.
Group delay is non-linear? I'm a philosophy guy not a physics guy. So I ask seriously.
For what it's worth, (and you're getting this for free😉), my take on phenomenology of perception for what it's possible to distinguish with our listening is affected by combination of three things: frequency, time, amplitude. That seems self evident but suppose:
Our discrimination of things in frequency domain, generally*, is masked (degenerated) by higher SPLs.
Our discrimination of things in time domain, generally*, is masked (degenerated) by lower SPLs.
If the two propositions above are true, then they should be taken into account in any sort of testing that might be done.
*Say, in the range of several hundred Hz to around 10, 12 kHz.
Are we there, yet?
Sure, and I can provide pictures if you like. Source is apple lossless to a K&K Audio RAKK DAC II. To a I/V to push pull 6n6p to Lundahl LL1689 amorphous output.
Amp is a Lynn Olson Karna with a few deviations; iron is Tribute, Lundahl, and O-Netics, where each does its best.
Monitors are Lynn Olson ME-2 with xovers using Hovland caps. Xovers are capable of biwired input and output. Bass is stereo sealed SS 25W-8565. Bass is using DCX2496 into SS amp. The Behringer is not used for the monitors; just the bass.
Fully balanced system from D/A to output transformer. All XLR interconnects.
Speaker wire is normally a homebrew braiding of 24awg silver coated solid copper with teflon insulation. I forget the total awg of the finished product; it doesn't matter to me as I don't fret over cables, but they are 3-24awg per.
For the tests you proposed, I used the same 16awg SO cord that I normally use for my bass drivers. Then compared that to 12awg building wire from the garage, just cut a bunch of pieces as needed. Resistor was just a plain old 0.01 current sense resistor; for kicks I went as high as 0.15 ohm, never hearing any difference.
Since my monoblocks are mounted right underneath the monitors, the total wire length from amp thru xover to speaker is 5-6 feet.
Hello Terry!
I have at least 4 different sets of ICs here to compare my present reference IC, the Stealth Audio Sakra:
STEALTH audio cables
a) I have one set that's very similar to these $29.99 IC's sold at Radio Shack:
Monster® Interlink® 250 3.28-Ft. Comp. Audio Connects (Pair) - RadioShack.com
b) I have a set of Grover IC's:
www.groverhuffman.com -
c) I have a set of inexpensive Tara Lab's but don't know the model.
d) I have my old reference Mike Rispoli's Gen VII IC.
From what I've read, those who believe wires have no unique sound of their own, usually state there's no difference between expensive "audiophile" wires and inexpensive Radio Shack wires. If that's the case there should be no sonic differences between my present reference ICs and any of this other ICs.
Terry I'm quite sure that SY will perform a very well conducted test. However should I pass this test and I truly believe I will, those who've been doubters will remain so & still find much to complain about! The first complaint will be, somehow, someone provided me with inadvertent clues as to which wire was installed --this is known as the Clever Hans effect. Another complaint will be this test is statistically insignificant. Another will be that it isn't a peer-reviewed, published test etc. Not one doubter will be impressed that the test was actually passed but, rather they'll concentrate on finding ways to explain why the end results aren't really valid instead. Personally I'm saddened by those actions but, I'm quite sure it's what will happen.
The only thing that really concerns me is the attention that's now being paid to the cable parameters ---{these weren't mentioned in SY's protocols}--- so I'd like to know BEFORE the test is done just what are the acceptable amounts of capacitance, inductance & resistance per 3 feet or 1 meter, with each ones specific plus & minus tolerances. I wouldn't mind an explanation on how these specific values were arrived at either. Did someone pick up a horrible sounding IC that had zero inner resolution capabilities, measure it's capacitance, inductance & resistance per foot & then declare this is the de facto, reference standard of what acceptable capacitance, inductance & resistance is & ALL other wires will be measured against this reference standard?
When hear things like this I start to see the beginning of a test that can be rigged to make one fail. So far I'm still game but, this is starting to raise some flags for me. If my Sakra is declared an "improperly designed" IC I'll be shocked! It's the first time in my life when changing the IC it actually sounded like a substantial, this sounds much more like live music does type of change, rather than a component upgrade or merely changing the perspective or flavor of the sound, like when one usually changes an IC. Everyone who's spent time listening to the Sakra has basically said the same thing as well....
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
If the frequency response, level, and noise don't vary much between them, the L, C, and R are close enough for government work.
I think the opposite of your worry is more likely- you don't distinguish, you're satisfied that it was a fair test (being an open-minded guy), but the Faith Based are convinced that if it had been THEM, they would have been able to distinguish.
Assuming you do distinguish and I have done my job properly, this would be eminently publishable. The thing we're testing is not "can the average Joe distinguish between two competent interconnects?" but rather, "can ANYONE distinguish between two competent interconnects?" Frankly, I hope you do; a nice JAES paper would look good on my resume.😀
Pick the two you think are the most different and they'll be the subjects of the test.
I think the opposite of your worry is more likely- you don't distinguish, you're satisfied that it was a fair test (being an open-minded guy), but the Faith Based are convinced that if it had been THEM, they would have been able to distinguish.
Assuming you do distinguish and I have done my job properly, this would be eminently publishable. The thing we're testing is not "can the average Joe distinguish between two competent interconnects?" but rather, "can ANYONE distinguish between two competent interconnects?" Frankly, I hope you do; a nice JAES paper would look good on my resume.😀
Pick the two you think are the most different and they'll be the subjects of the test.
now where did you learn that? dc is dc, ac is ac...it is as simple as that.....come on, you don't bend the laws of physics if it suits your belief....
Hey TG, thanks for the detailed response.
purely for clarification, I only mentioned parameters cause (to me at least) we need to distinguish between a few phenomena.
I really don't think anyone seriously disagrees that cables CAN make a difference. (Whether or not in normal use any differences are actually audible is another question entirely.) The point is that cables CAN make a difference.
In that case, it is entirely understood and predictable from established and existing EE theory. Few of us would deny that Peter Aczel represents one of the 'extreme' ends of this debate would they (??), yet this point is clearly illustrated in the pages of audio critic.
SO, where we mostly depart I guess is when the 'cable believers' attribute any audible difference to ''''previously unknown and undocumented discoveries in physics'''', ie something other than established EE theory. Variations include 'science does not know everything' and 'the ears can hear things that we have no means of currently measuring' etc etc. (My personal favorite is 'the ears are the most exquisite measuring device in the known universe' heh heh.)
So rather than your fear of me preparing the groundwork to disavow you hearing these differences, it rather is me saying 'if there were indeed audible differences, AND that the parameters are 'within tolerance', then yes we DO look like we may have found something that does indicate something we 'have not known previously'', and as such is very exciting indeed.
Note that I personally have no idea what these tolerances are, so your questions on that front are good ones.
Again I am not too much up to speed on what combinations of speaker load and amps are the most likely to be affected by cable parameter differences, but your speakers seem to be 'normal' loads etc, so maybe there is not too much to be expected in that regard from your system??
What I DO want to put to you TG is the reverse of your fears....are you able to put emotion aside and answer this question honestly..if you do NOT hear these differences, what do you think your reaction might be??
We know (from your oft repeated certainty that you will pick them) you will be in a state of disbelief initially, but will you accept that perhaps your ears have been fooled or will you join the group that says there is something inherently wrong with dbts and that they are the confounding factor?? (it is a common response)
It is that question behind my urging to thoroughly acquaint yourself with the cables etc before SY arrives, and if at all possible (family, friends, fellow members of your audio club) also thoroughly get a grasp of these cables under dbt conditions (as outlined by SY), as it is under these conditions you will be doing the test.
It is the very same concerns that jakob has I think. Thoroughly get used to the conditions of listening blind.
So, at least from my perspective, not preparing future objections at all, but trying to predict and remove objections beforehand.
After all, as we have seen from the last how many pages, any test to date has not been accepted, so we need to learn from those previous tests what and how to make the next more rigorous, we need to learn from our mistakes.
Good luck, keep us informed of your prelim tests in readiness for SYs arrival, and in the new year good luck with the test with SY.
Looking forward to it!!!
(still no brave souls over here in aus, lots of hot air and wind but when push comes to shove.......)
purely for clarification, I only mentioned parameters cause (to me at least) we need to distinguish between a few phenomena.
I really don't think anyone seriously disagrees that cables CAN make a difference. (Whether or not in normal use any differences are actually audible is another question entirely.) The point is that cables CAN make a difference.
In that case, it is entirely understood and predictable from established and existing EE theory. Few of us would deny that Peter Aczel represents one of the 'extreme' ends of this debate would they (??), yet this point is clearly illustrated in the pages of audio critic.
SO, where we mostly depart I guess is when the 'cable believers' attribute any audible difference to ''''previously unknown and undocumented discoveries in physics'''', ie something other than established EE theory. Variations include 'science does not know everything' and 'the ears can hear things that we have no means of currently measuring' etc etc. (My personal favorite is 'the ears are the most exquisite measuring device in the known universe' heh heh.)
So rather than your fear of me preparing the groundwork to disavow you hearing these differences, it rather is me saying 'if there were indeed audible differences, AND that the parameters are 'within tolerance', then yes we DO look like we may have found something that does indicate something we 'have not known previously'', and as such is very exciting indeed.
Note that I personally have no idea what these tolerances are, so your questions on that front are good ones.
Again I am not too much up to speed on what combinations of speaker load and amps are the most likely to be affected by cable parameter differences, but your speakers seem to be 'normal' loads etc, so maybe there is not too much to be expected in that regard from your system??
What I DO want to put to you TG is the reverse of your fears....are you able to put emotion aside and answer this question honestly..if you do NOT hear these differences, what do you think your reaction might be??
We know (from your oft repeated certainty that you will pick them) you will be in a state of disbelief initially, but will you accept that perhaps your ears have been fooled or will you join the group that says there is something inherently wrong with dbts and that they are the confounding factor?? (it is a common response)
It is that question behind my urging to thoroughly acquaint yourself with the cables etc before SY arrives, and if at all possible (family, friends, fellow members of your audio club) also thoroughly get a grasp of these cables under dbt conditions (as outlined by SY), as it is under these conditions you will be doing the test.
It is the very same concerns that jakob has I think. Thoroughly get used to the conditions of listening blind.
So, at least from my perspective, not preparing future objections at all, but trying to predict and remove objections beforehand.
After all, as we have seen from the last how many pages, any test to date has not been accepted, so we need to learn from those previous tests what and how to make the next more rigorous, we need to learn from our mistakes.
Good luck, keep us informed of your prelim tests in readiness for SYs arrival, and in the new year good luck with the test with SY.
Looking forward to it!!!
(still no brave souls over here in aus, lots of hot air and wind but when push comes to shove.......)
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SY 'if" the test is run according to the protocols we agreed on, then yes, when it's completed I'll be more than satisfied that it was a fair test. I honestly believe I'm going to surprise you though. Please understand I'm not claiming to have super-human hearing or even above average hearing. What I'm claiming is I've trained my ear/brain to notice when something has changed sonically.
Hmmmm I can hardly imagine the possibility that I might be mentioned in a JAES paper as the first man who proved, in a properly run DBT, people actually can distinguish between two competent interconnects! 😱 To be honest if you're thinking it will be springtime before you'll be here, I'm going to have a few of my audio friends from Central Florida Audio Society, Space Coast Audio Society and or SETriodes group over test myself in a DBT similar to what I'll be doing with you but, perhaps not quite as strictly run. My only concern is I often get very anxious when I have to take a test.
About 5 and half years ago ---{before I had to go back on social security disability}--- I had to take a special course to become a licensed insurance agent in florida. After the course was completed the florida state police did a back round check on me and eventually ok'ed me to be an agent. So now I had to take an approx 1 hr test. I was told at school they bring you into a room that has camera's everywhere and you're not allowed to leave, even to relieve yourself unless there's an aid present that will follow you into the bathroom to make sure you're not cheating! Believe it or not I showed up an hour early for the test and vomited 4X before going in but, I passed the test with flying colors.
So I'll do a few dry runs here at home with friend and try and work through the anxiety of taking a test. Hopefully by the time you arrive it will be 2nd nature to me. Now SY do you honestly want me to pick the IC I believe sounds the most dissimilar to the Sakra? If I do that and they are both acceptable ---{is there anyway of finding out if the Sakra is acceptable before you arrive}--- it won't be a test, it will be more like shooting fish in a barrell! Hmmmmm I really hope you're as open-minded a guy as I am SY, because I really think you're going to be very surprised. Oh yes I noticed you commented on the Sakra's price. It is quite expensive but, I didn't pay $10K.
Shhhhhh, be berry, berry quiet, we're hunting wabbits... .
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
Unfortunately, they don't give specs for the ICs, but it may not matter. What's the source component driving the IC and what's at the terminating end?
I absolutely encourage you to practice. I want to you to have the best possible shot at proving your point.
I absolutely encourage you to practice. I want to you to have the best possible shot at proving your point.
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