I didn't say people will fail.I said about possible failure that the scientific side will expect.
For me,if someone/anyone swaps the cables,then the test is as controlled as it would be if switches were in use.As long as someone/anyone swaps the cables and I can listen to my chosen music for as long as I want(one LP side) in a system I know well(preferably mine),then we agree.Also,between cable swaps the system must be switched off,and back on for at least 5-10 minutes before the next session.Any problem with that?
Also,if we are testing say two interconnect cables between a cd player and an amp,through a switching box,can anyone tell us how the connections will be done and how many interconnects we will need in the end?
Sean Olive did some good work. What he has put up on the web is but a small subset of what is in Toole's book, and one really needs to read Toole's book to get the whole picture.
Nousaine is a champion of ABX which, i firmly believe, is not a very powerful blind testing methodology and easily subverted.
dave
I've posted examples about a million times. Still no takers.
My own opinion is that the question of "obscuring" is really shorthand for, "I don't like the results, please don't spoil my fun." The same "obscuring" methods seem to work fine for all serious sensory research- wouldn't it be nice if audio had a certification like Masters of Wine, who have to actually demonstrate tasting ability and identification blind?
BiTZ is bITs and Onez Iz oNEs and ZerOS iS zER0Z. Could you read that? Most likely your DAC could too. panomaniac has it right, the analog section is much more important.
Ok, back to cabals and bum sniffing.
🙄
I already know the freaking truth! If the equiptment is prone to RF detection, then is is "quite likely" that I will hear the local radio station.
That's a fairly lengthy piece of design which is why my suggested protocols don't include that. And whenever a switching box is use, the whining about how it covers up differences is deafening.
You can buy an ABX box (that's what you're proposing) from David Clark, if memory serves.
So you're asking me to spend a couple of hours, for free, to design and draw up a test system for you that you have no intention of using?
Sheesh.
I've given you and everyone else solid test protocols. Stop playing games and go do them.
Sort of, except that big-name labs have actually tested it and found, of course, that it's a total crock. The dodging and dancing of the homeopaths and their gulls to continuing negative results is eerily familiar.
A question
I thinking of making some good money from this audio cable caper. Here’s the plan:
I’ll buy some really cheap but technically okay cable at say one dollar per metre (wholesale). Then cover it in a really flash looking plastic cover and put some really nice lettering on it, with gold RCA connectors at either end (of course). There will be two models, but the only change will be in the name of the cable, the cable itself will remain the same. The model names will be something that invokes a warm feeling in people, like mythological names. I’m thinking of “Valhalla” and “Euphoria”.
Of course I will charge a premium for my cables. I'm thinking around $100 per metre for Valhalla and $300 per metre for Euphoria. Euphoria is the “premium” model and Valhalla is for those who are more budget conscious about their cables.
Next I’ll place whole page, professionally created, full colour ads in a range of audio magazines. I'm thinking about magazines like The Absolute Sound or Stereophile. The ads will make claims about how much better these cables are and that they have been specially designed to bring out the real nuance, imaging and depths of the audio sound field.
I will give free samples to all the subjective reviewers that write for those types of magazines. I will also give the cables out to anyone I know who believes that there is a difference in cables and who are more than happy to do fully sighted tests to see if my cables sound better than other cables.
I will probably get lucky and at least one of the reviewers who do fully sighted tests will discover that my cable does indeed improve the sound of their system. If I'm very lucky they will write comments such as “switching between the Euphoria and the Valhalla I was struck by the increase in the depth of the sound stage and an audible improvement in the shimmer of strings and vocals”.
Now I can run more ads quoting the review in all the magazines and also quoting those people who also did sighted tests who similarly wax lyrical about how the cables are making such a difference to their system.
Now I contact a range of audio dealers, specialist dealers, to get placement of my cables on their shelves. Of course I give them free samples of my cables so that they can go home and do as many sighted test as they desire. I'm fairly sure that they will indicate that the cables make improvements, particularly the more expensive Euphoria model.
I give very generous discounts to the audio stores so that they have a really nice margin on sale of my cables. After all, it's only costing me two dollars max per metre to manufacture them so I can afford to cut a bit of slack to the dealers.
So those people who love music and want to improve their hi-fi set up, but don't have a lot of experience or technical knowledge, might see my ads and read the subjective reviews and visit the audio store and be told by the salesman something like “Look, I took these home to my own set up and I can tell you they really make a difference particularly the Euphoria model, but if your budget only extends so far I would certainly get the Valhalla model - it'll make a big improvement."
My question is to all those people who don't think that it is necessary to have tests that distinguish differences in a way which accounts for perceptual bias and the placebo effect.
If you think that it is not okay for people to make false claims about their products and if you think that its not okay for people to be ripped off, and if you don't believe in proper double-blind tests to ferret out those products which in fact aren't making a difference then:
I thinking of making some good money from this audio cable caper. Here’s the plan:
I’ll buy some really cheap but technically okay cable at say one dollar per metre (wholesale). Then cover it in a really flash looking plastic cover and put some really nice lettering on it, with gold RCA connectors at either end (of course). There will be two models, but the only change will be in the name of the cable, the cable itself will remain the same. The model names will be something that invokes a warm feeling in people, like mythological names. I’m thinking of “Valhalla” and “Euphoria”.
Of course I will charge a premium for my cables. I'm thinking around $100 per metre for Valhalla and $300 per metre for Euphoria. Euphoria is the “premium” model and Valhalla is for those who are more budget conscious about their cables.
Next I’ll place whole page, professionally created, full colour ads in a range of audio magazines. I'm thinking about magazines like The Absolute Sound or Stereophile. The ads will make claims about how much better these cables are and that they have been specially designed to bring out the real nuance, imaging and depths of the audio sound field.
I will give free samples to all the subjective reviewers that write for those types of magazines. I will also give the cables out to anyone I know who believes that there is a difference in cables and who are more than happy to do fully sighted tests to see if my cables sound better than other cables.
I will probably get lucky and at least one of the reviewers who do fully sighted tests will discover that my cable does indeed improve the sound of their system. If I'm very lucky they will write comments such as “switching between the Euphoria and the Valhalla I was struck by the increase in the depth of the sound stage and an audible improvement in the shimmer of strings and vocals”.
Now I can run more ads quoting the review in all the magazines and also quoting those people who also did sighted tests who similarly wax lyrical about how the cables are making such a difference to their system.
Now I contact a range of audio dealers, specialist dealers, to get placement of my cables on their shelves. Of course I give them free samples of my cables so that they can go home and do as many sighted test as they desire. I'm fairly sure that they will indicate that the cables make improvements, particularly the more expensive Euphoria model.
I give very generous discounts to the audio stores so that they have a really nice margin on sale of my cables. After all, it's only costing me two dollars max per metre to manufacture them so I can afford to cut a bit of slack to the dealers.
So those people who love music and want to improve their hi-fi set up, but don't have a lot of experience or technical knowledge, might see my ads and read the subjective reviews and visit the audio store and be told by the salesman something like “Look, I took these home to my own set up and I can tell you they really make a difference particularly the Euphoria model, but if your budget only extends so far I would certainly get the Valhalla model - it'll make a big improvement."
My question is to all those people who don't think that it is necessary to have tests that distinguish differences in a way which accounts for perceptual bias and the placebo effect.
If you think that it is not okay for people to make false claims about their products and if you think that its not okay for people to be ripped off, and if you don't believe in proper double-blind tests to ferret out those products which in fact aren't making a difference then:
What is your recommended procedure for ensuring that the shysters and the crooks and the whole chain of deception is stopped?
Fortuitously, just after posting that, someone on another thread posted a link to this paper on phase distortion, which has the most succinct blurb on ABX i have seen yet....
Hence using an ABX to assert that 2 DUT do not sound different would be a subversion.
dave
"A question"
"I thinking of making some good money from this audio cable caper. Here’s the plan:"
"What is your recommended procedure for ensuring that the shysters and the crooks and the whole chain of deception is stopped?"
The proverbial "elephant in the room" has arrived... hehe
"I thinking of making some good money from this audio cable caper. Here’s the plan:"
"What is your recommended procedure for ensuring that the shysters and the crooks and the whole chain of deception is stopped?"
The proverbial "elephant in the room" has arrived... hehe
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