This thread has gone on for over 540 pages, I can't imagine there is anything left to add.
I think good speaker wire is better than bad speaker wire, but great speaker wire is only a little bit better than good speaker wire.
In a thread in another group, a person wrote in an asked is this good speaker wire. Well, it was pretty average speaker wire though it was indeed 16 ga AWG (1.3mm²), but just by chance he had the full specs on that wire. So, I calculated the impedance of the inductance and capacitance at various frequencies relative to an 8 ohm speaker.
Neither capacitance or inductance had any significant impact at any frequency below 40khz.
Now I didn't make my calculations at extreme values, I don't remember what it was, but it was generously typical for a pair of front speakers.
I'm sure there are all kinds of things that can be done to wire to reduce inductance and capacitance, but most of the very real effect it is having is outside the range of normal hearing, and you are paying an extremely high price to affect something up around 40khz to a 100khz.
When you get right down to it, it is not a matter of wire quality, but a matter of reasonable proportion to the rest of your equipment. To me, it makes little sense to spend $500 on an amp, and $500 on wire to go with it. Better to spend $900 on the amp and $100 on the wire to go with it.
Now if you have thousands into your system, certainly spend hundreds on the wire. But if you only have hundreds in your system, it make little sense to spend hundreds on wire.
If you have an exceptional system, buy exceptional wire, but if you have an average system, then by good average real speaker wire. Again, it is about reasonable proportions. Keep the price of speaker wire and interconnecting cables in reasonable proportion to the rest of your system.
But then, that's just my opinion.
Steve/bluewizard
I think good speaker wire is better than bad speaker wire, but great speaker wire is only a little bit better than good speaker wire.
In a thread in another group, a person wrote in an asked is this good speaker wire. Well, it was pretty average speaker wire though it was indeed 16 ga AWG (1.3mm²), but just by chance he had the full specs on that wire. So, I calculated the impedance of the inductance and capacitance at various frequencies relative to an 8 ohm speaker.
Neither capacitance or inductance had any significant impact at any frequency below 40khz.
Now I didn't make my calculations at extreme values, I don't remember what it was, but it was generously typical for a pair of front speakers.
I'm sure there are all kinds of things that can be done to wire to reduce inductance and capacitance, but most of the very real effect it is having is outside the range of normal hearing, and you are paying an extremely high price to affect something up around 40khz to a 100khz.
When you get right down to it, it is not a matter of wire quality, but a matter of reasonable proportion to the rest of your equipment. To me, it makes little sense to spend $500 on an amp, and $500 on wire to go with it. Better to spend $900 on the amp and $100 on the wire to go with it.
Now if you have thousands into your system, certainly spend hundreds on the wire. But if you only have hundreds in your system, it make little sense to spend hundreds on wire.
If you have an exceptional system, buy exceptional wire, but if you have an average system, then by good average real speaker wire. Again, it is about reasonable proportions. Keep the price of speaker wire and interconnecting cables in reasonable proportion to the rest of your system.
But then, that's just my opinion.
Steve/bluewizard
Methodology? Results? Conclusions? Nothing. That's the worse kind of marketing tactics: attempting to wrap the sales message into a pseudo-scientific shell.
And now, eat this, from the same web site:
Finit coronat opus
I´m sorry, but it was just your statement about cable manufacturers unwilling to put any effort in double blind testing, that gave reason for my post.
BTW, compared to a lot of other manufacturers i think the amount of snake oil is quite low in your quotes.
The rules of marketing are universal and i don´t see any reason why the audio business could be an exception in that game?!
I don´t see the author is doing that, he´s just describing what should be measured and talks about some possible confounders.
Maybe you did not take into account where the author was working at the time of this lecture and got a false impression of his position?
That a lot of engineers apparently don´t understand the holistic
character of a high quality audio reproduction chain became at least obvious in a lot of forum discussions all over the world.
BTW i´m a bit surprised that we are only discussing the "Paul Frindle aspect" of my post. 😉
MUSHRA is just an example for a preference test scheme.
As i´ve said before, while some people don´t seem to have difficulties with ABX, see for example Putzeys or Frindle (his team), i know from first hand experience that some listeners do have problems with the special ABX test as it quite different from the somewhat "normal" evaluation.
So preference tests seem to be the natural choice as they are more similiar to the normal evaluation listeners already are used to.
A test like MUSHRA offers the possibility to include a positive and negative control in the same run like the EUT (effect under test) while other protocols
lead to additional runs.
Sometimes you have to test for the most appropriate test protocol. 🙂
Sorry, I should say honest (from an engineering/scientific perspective) effort.
Your thoughts about rules of marketing are unfortunately true and explains a lot of the BS that is available on the high end audio market, magazines, audio reviews, this forum and this thread. Yes, I have heard confessions from otherwise known as competent engineers about "if I don't get along with this subjective/snake oil BS, I'm out of business".
540 pages- wow!
My proposal is this:
If there are differences that are audible when playing CDs, we can record them. If we can record the differences, we can make a CD with all the 'different' cables we want and distribute it via download as a DIYAUDIO complete disc.
No-one except the maker of the disc knows what cables were used on each track. You can analyse it, listen to it, and come up with a series of questions on a poll to see what the results are.
We can have music excerpts, test tones, whatever the general consensus is and record it all on a known good quality CDR machine and then rip using EAC to a file someone can host. I propose the recorder be a YAMAHA CDR13xx standalone hifi recorder (not computer based) and any CD player ubiquitous and clearly deemed capable of displaying those differences. Also, a crosssection of cables would need to be decided on to test, from the cheapest moulded nasties through to skys-the-limit cables.
My proposal is this:
If there are differences that are audible when playing CDs, we can record them. If we can record the differences, we can make a CD with all the 'different' cables we want and distribute it via download as a DIYAUDIO complete disc.
No-one except the maker of the disc knows what cables were used on each track. You can analyse it, listen to it, and come up with a series of questions on a poll to see what the results are.
We can have music excerpts, test tones, whatever the general consensus is and record it all on a known good quality CDR machine and then rip using EAC to a file someone can host. I propose the recorder be a YAMAHA CDR13xx standalone hifi recorder (not computer based) and any CD player ubiquitous and clearly deemed capable of displaying those differences. Also, a crosssection of cables would need to be decided on to test, from the cheapest moulded nasties through to skys-the-limit cables.
I just heared on UTUBE a comparition of two compressors,,,
1 With 4 tubes in parallel only with exelent sonic characteristic,,
1 as a digital copy of the first,,,,
So when listening on utube you could not hear any difference,,
I smile, how can you do that ???? on a "low end" playback soundcard
so even here with cables,,,,Everything matters, even the cables.
I belive,,,,🙂
I built a bi-amping set of speaker cables out of coax, each conductor being the shield of one cable in parallel with the core of another, resulting in each speaker having 4 lengths of co-ax run to it. It cost $90NZD to make. I compared it to my cheapy copper not-even-OFC rubbish and it was 'different'. I happened to like the difference at normal listening levels so it stayed in the system. Also it's hilarious to show people because it looks like it would have cost $1k+ to buy. Ultimately though, I blather to my friends about this sound, that sound, and they nod and smile. They then go home and listen to mp3's and tell me how wonderful x song is because of the honesty of the lyrics and the emotion the guy on the guitar puts into his playing, and I realise that they actually appreciate the music more than I do.
For sure cables makes a lot of difference....... to the factory and salesman pockets
They are expensive and this results big amounts of profit.
The difference is:
- "You fill their wallet and empty your own!"
regards,
Carlos
They are expensive and this results big amounts of profit.
The difference is:
- "You fill their wallet and empty your own!"
regards,
Carlos
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Given the general current understanding most average physicists have of electromagnetism, the answer is performance of a conductor depends on inductance, capacitance, and resistance or impedance. Is that all there is to it. Probably not. Am I guessing? Yes. Am I the best person to guess this? No.
"The simplest answer is usually the right one." If you define "right" as what most people agree on, then I agree with the quote. It's easy to agree on something simple. If you define "right" as what's factually correct, then I don't agree with the quote.
Science is not meant to best to be treated as a religion, but it is. People fifteen years from now will be lolling at our "science" and this cycle repeats forever.
I have thought I heard the difference in speaker wires once and I don't know if this had anything to do with standard electromagnetic theory, if my perception and recollection is correct to start off with.
With that being typed. I would not spend three cups of warm urine on speaker wire if I was a urine billionaire.
"The simplest answer is usually the right one." If you define "right" as what most people agree on, then I agree with the quote. It's easy to agree on something simple. If you define "right" as what's factually correct, then I don't agree with the quote.
Science is not meant to best to be treated as a religion, but it is. People fifteen years from now will be lolling at our "science" and this cycle repeats forever.
I have thought I heard the difference in speaker wires once and I don't know if this had anything to do with standard electromagnetic theory, if my perception and recollection is correct to start off with.
With that being typed. I would not spend three cups of warm urine on speaker wire if I was a urine billionaire.
Jimmy154, when you look at your children you may think they are the most beautifull
ones..the most clever ones... the most special ones..... this may be truth or not..but for sure your will have enormous influence in that way you see them..your feelings, your own decision about... the fact they are "yourself" in certain way cooperates to love them deeply (loving yourself is the main reason of that)... they look alike in certain way...so....you loving yourself and appreciating your own beauty you gonna love them too, as a natural consequence.
Well...nothing goes to conscience...this is is hidden inside the secret brain "processing".
If you decide to appreciate some cable, because hundreds of possible reasons, you may make your own mind to appreciate it.... we can do that... we decide to be married with "that" girl because you have decided that..you accepted that one as the best possibility...you have supposed she would be the best decision... the good thing to be done.. understanding and deciding that your choice, was the best possibility to you.... really?...... probably not...and no one can answer and guarantee that as you cannot married all other possibilities to really "know" about...so, the self persuation is the answer.
During evaluations.. the brain system processing goes doing the same.....it is an entire system negotiating... sense versus non sense department discussing internally your brain.... politically accepted things against not politically accepted... comparison of values and prices in contact with our own prejudices department and so on...many different results can overcome from that.... i think when not a decent blind testing is made.... we do not really "know" the stuff...... we just decide the result....our own internal and non conscience judgement offers you a result... you do not know the process of decision beeing made...have not conscience of that... to your conscience emerges a result only...the brain data processing is not clear to us..do not comes to conscience....it is a result of a strong "negociation" that happens internally in our brain.
Maybe you found one sounding better.... really?... are you absolutelly sure?..was this reality?
No!...of course i do not think you're an idiot or something.... i think almost all of us operates, internally this way.... a very complex "thinking system" that depends from several multiple complex reasons...an enormous ballance of factors results in decisions, feelings and evaluations.
I think that a serious A to B BLIND testing is the answer..not knowing, you will judge sound...nothing more than sound... and i hope you use an operator to switch from one cable to the other, a clever guy, to switch from A to A and B to B, and A to B, and B to A and someone clever enougth to observe CONSISTENCE in the answer and results.
Maybe those cables really sounds the same...i am talking about reality...real things...but you may have decided, one day, to select one as better (this does not goes to conscience.)
Seems complicated..but it is not.. an example:
I have a friend that is a coward... he never figth for nothing...but he do not accept he is that way..his brain system...the processing, have created to himself a character, alike an artist on stage, or producing a movie... he believe himself as a very good and skilled "negotiator"...someone that find a way to peacefully find a solution to all human crashes..... this transformation, from the real coward into a clever man is the "brain processing"...and this is not conscience... a big negotiation happens internally..what appear was the result....he never think that he could be a coward..he is sure he is the negotiator.... he know he feel afraigthned...this goes to conscience..it is a feeling he perceived..but he will tell you he was afraid of the stupid sittuation that makes "stone aged" man starts to figth when we can be, adult and clever, and find a better solution without figth (negotiating.. accomodating).... this way a coward is self transformed in heroe... and this our system can accept easy..to be a coward is unaceptable!
regards,
Carlos
ones..the most clever ones... the most special ones..... this may be truth or not..but for sure your will have enormous influence in that way you see them..your feelings, your own decision about... the fact they are "yourself" in certain way cooperates to love them deeply (loving yourself is the main reason of that)... they look alike in certain way...so....you loving yourself and appreciating your own beauty you gonna love them too, as a natural consequence.
Well...nothing goes to conscience...this is is hidden inside the secret brain "processing".
If you decide to appreciate some cable, because hundreds of possible reasons, you may make your own mind to appreciate it.... we can do that... we decide to be married with "that" girl because you have decided that..you accepted that one as the best possibility...you have supposed she would be the best decision... the good thing to be done.. understanding and deciding that your choice, was the best possibility to you.... really?...... probably not...and no one can answer and guarantee that as you cannot married all other possibilities to really "know" about...so, the self persuation is the answer.
During evaluations.. the brain system processing goes doing the same.....it is an entire system negotiating... sense versus non sense department discussing internally your brain.... politically accepted things against not politically accepted... comparison of values and prices in contact with our own prejudices department and so on...many different results can overcome from that.... i think when not a decent blind testing is made.... we do not really "know" the stuff...... we just decide the result....our own internal and non conscience judgement offers you a result... you do not know the process of decision beeing made...have not conscience of that... to your conscience emerges a result only...the brain data processing is not clear to us..do not comes to conscience....it is a result of a strong "negociation" that happens internally in our brain.
Maybe you found one sounding better.... really?... are you absolutelly sure?..was this reality?
No!...of course i do not think you're an idiot or something.... i think almost all of us operates, internally this way.... a very complex "thinking system" that depends from several multiple complex reasons...an enormous ballance of factors results in decisions, feelings and evaluations.
I think that a serious A to B BLIND testing is the answer..not knowing, you will judge sound...nothing more than sound... and i hope you use an operator to switch from one cable to the other, a clever guy, to switch from A to A and B to B, and A to B, and B to A and someone clever enougth to observe CONSISTENCE in the answer and results.
Maybe those cables really sounds the same...i am talking about reality...real things...but you may have decided, one day, to select one as better (this does not goes to conscience.)
Seems complicated..but it is not.. an example:
I have a friend that is a coward... he never figth for nothing...but he do not accept he is that way..his brain system...the processing, have created to himself a character, alike an artist on stage, or producing a movie... he believe himself as a very good and skilled "negotiator"...someone that find a way to peacefully find a solution to all human crashes..... this transformation, from the real coward into a clever man is the "brain processing"...and this is not conscience... a big negotiation happens internally..what appear was the result....he never think that he could be a coward..he is sure he is the negotiator.... he know he feel afraigthned...this goes to conscience..it is a feeling he perceived..but he will tell you he was afraid of the stupid sittuation that makes "stone aged" man starts to figth when we can be, adult and clever, and find a better solution without figth (negotiating.. accomodating).... this way a coward is self transformed in heroe... and this our system can accept easy..to be a coward is unaceptable!
regards,
Carlos
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So an "average physicist" dosnt use Maxwells equations, just the good ones do?
Yes thats all there is, just resistance and reactance (capacitors and inductors). No magic involved. If you can find another parameter you can get in line for a Nobel Prize.
Jimmy154,
The LCR of a conductor is all that you need for one "cable" to be better than another.
However, the L and R relate to the stability of the amplifier, not an event intrinsic to the cable only.
The C relates to what happens in the cable and how the loses in signal it provides act as a tone modifier. Read up on dielectric constant and what makes up that complex number, dielectric absorption and triboelectric effect.
Bud
The LCR of a conductor is all that you need for one "cable" to be better than another.
However, the L and R relate to the stability of the amplifier, not an event intrinsic to the cable only.
The C relates to what happens in the cable and how the loses in signal it provides act as a tone modifier. Read up on dielectric constant and what makes up that complex number, dielectric absorption and triboelectric effect.
Bud
Is RF susceptibility L, C or R? How about diode effect at a connector crimp? Microphonics? Lots of room for debate whether any of these secondary physical properties warrant concern, but collapsing cable effects to L, C and R is simply incorrect.
Where's my Nobel?
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Hi,
On the money as usual.
How about time?
I'm sure you know.
Time is the essence, isn't it?
Cheers, 😉
On the money as usual.
How about time?
I'm sure you know.
Time is the essence, isn't it?
Cheers, 😉
Well, yes. Or, more accurately, the singular lack of time, what with one form of C being involved in the electrostatic moments and all. Actually vector is more important than time and of course another C could easily have already escaped, by the time your vector has altered....
Bud
I don't have anything to add to the scientific side of this debate however,
I recently made myself some cables bout 15ft in length out of some Cat5 network cable I had sitting around.
I just ran one line of cat5 to each speaker using 4 strands for + and 4 strands for -.
This new cables sounds way better than the 12g monster cable I had before.
I've also got some nicer twisted pair interconnects that sound better on my turntable than the cheap radio shack cables.
I can't notice as much of a difference on my cd player though so I think it has to do with the weaker signal levels.
Just my $0.02 and it's worth what you paid for it.
-Josh
I recently made myself some cables bout 15ft in length out of some Cat5 network cable I had sitting around.
I just ran one line of cat5 to each speaker using 4 strands for + and 4 strands for -.
This new cables sounds way better than the 12g monster cable I had before.
I've also got some nicer twisted pair interconnects that sound better on my turntable than the cheap radio shack cables.
I can't notice as much of a difference on my cd player though so I think it has to do with the weaker signal levels.
Just my $0.02 and it's worth what you paid for it.
-Josh
Of course RF susceptibility is LCR (are we talking about Electromagnetics or not.) What do you think it is? Connectors are not cables, and microphonics is, wait for it, L C and R changes in the cable due to exernal pressure, and in speaker cables inaudible.(this one is easy to prove). Why not add quantum tunneling between conductors in a multistrand wire, the Maxwell effect (which I never heard of till yesterday and still cant find any info on, can someone help me find some) or even sun spot rejection and other "scientific" explanations for what people want to hear. You play the cable marketers game of casting doubt by using non relevant science (add transmission line effects to the list) to obscure the reality.
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