My thought is that all that fancy exstra added materials needed to give the sense of exclusivity could have a negative effect on sound
Maybe the same thing goes for some expencive amps etc, like say added complexity to give the impressive look
For many years amps were sold on distortion specs, but that doesnt fool anyone no more
Now its often the quest for power that sells amps
But most things are sold by the looks
We are only humans
Maybe the same thing goes for some expencive amps etc, like say added complexity to give the impressive look
For many years amps were sold on distortion specs, but that doesnt fool anyone no more
Now its often the quest for power that sells amps
But most things are sold by the looks
We are only humans
Not sure if they have a negative effect on sound,sure thing is that they have a negative effect on the buyer's pocket.I saw the box of a friend's speaker cables bought second hand from US for $5000,that measured 70x70x30 cm,made of veneered plywood with an equally "impressive" gold colour metal sign at the top of the hinged lid.
SY said:
What I'm suggesting is that if we construct two sets of 'identical' cables except for copper quality and maybe dielectric, the cables should measure the same and the effects on the equipment should be identical, thus eliminating the equipment effects from the comparison.
Any logic in that?
I think precious metals overtime do not react well with lesser metals. They add increased THD in the long term. At least this is what I have guessed and anecdotally measured.
Key said:
Do you mean like silvered copper
Never sounds good to me
Tinned copper is ok though
Gold plated silver should be ok too
Any idea why they add increased THD?I have read also that many DJ's don't like headshells with gold plated pins for example on tonearms where the headshell collar pins are nickel.
Not quite. A number of things will affect capacitance, inductance and resistance. Capacitance (pF/meter) will vary with dielectric type, but also with thickness of dielectric and conductors and with conductor spacing. And twisting pitch (turns per meter) if twisted around each other. If the cable is made uniformly (and with no relevant discontinuities and no magnetic cores or beads involved), the inductance (nH/meter) will be directly related to the capacitance and the dielectric type. The resistance (ohms/meter) will vary of course with wire gauge or thickness and relatively little with conductor metal.
But given all that, if someone presented a cable with some given amount of inductace, capacitance, and resistance, it shouldn't be too difficult to come up with another cable that matched all three of those parameters.
Tube guy, would you be interested in meeting at some major audio event in the coming year (such as the Rocky Mountain fest or an AES convention) and demonstrating ability to tell your favorite cable from one made to match R, L, and C? It seems it should be possible to get enough interested people together and who can arrange a decent listening room for the test. Well documented, a successful test would be a historical event. An AES event would be best, as many there would probably be very interested in witnessing such a demo.
SY said:
I tell you this cable thing is a can of worms. Attending to the response issues is probably non-convergent. I'm far more interested in preference rather than difference. Why would Garloo's pixie dust treated $20k cables apriori be prefered to 0000 welding cable. Back to a few bucks a foot BTW (unterminated). I bought a terminating kit, the biggest spade lugs you ever saw and a thingie you whack with a four pound sledge.
I should measure a pair, I guess little R, L, or C. At least I know R is .00005 Ohms/ft.
scott wurcer said:
Can of worms for sure, a lot of wriggling going on.
The only explanation I can think of is "believing is hearing".
terry j said:
I'm still keen to do the test to satisfy my own curiosity.
To clarify my position:
1) I believe cables can sound different in a given system
2) I have heard differences in speaker cables in my system
3) I will continue to judge changes to my system using my ears
4) I have never purchased 'off-the-shelf' speaker cables and probably never will
5) my listening enjoyment takes priority, so if I like the sound of any change in my system, then it stays.
Currently I use unterminated Cat5e as my speaker cable.
SY said:
Close, but I might change it a little bit:
"Any differences between cables that do not alter the measurable system frequency response or level more than 0.1 dB in the range of 20Hz-20kHz have not proven to be consistently audible in a controlled listening test."
Science is not about 'absolutes', but 'absolute until proven otherwise'.
the earth is the centre of the solar system...
the earth is flat...
the electron is the smallest thing in an atom...
Pluto is a planet...
I'll stick with 3) and 5) - until proven otherwise. 😉
Cheers,
Alex
scott wurcer said:
I the spirit of full disclosure Cardas thought of it too...
"A new form of termination where the spades are crush forged onto the cable to create one solid copper junction "
Unfortunately I guarantee the electricians of American were first. 🙂
Panicos K said:
All I know is that I grew up in Florida a block away from the beach. I think with 90% humidity my experience is probably exaggerated but anytime two different metals are in contact in my old house they would corrode over time. So something like exposed speaker contacts would be one of the first things to experience this.
My house is 800m from the ocean and 200m from a saltwater lake. I never saw any corrosion on contacts but every year or so I got out the Caig and gave them a once over.Key said:
Re: Re: Re: Re: An illusion that will not survive to a fair blind
I cannot speak for anyone else, but it has always been that it they measure different they sound different. TG1954 has been stating emphatically that he can hear a difference; if that is because of an FR anomaly, then so what, it should be expected. My point was that the system should be measured to make sure there are no such anomalies before testing.Panicos K said:
scott wurcer said:
Never tried welding cable but experimented with different gauges of mains wiring, my experience was that larger cable diameters have a negative influence on HF. Only used my physical measururing system though. 😀 (I think it may be trusted as all were cables that I had in stock and I end up using none of them, thus excluding price bias, also my expectation at that time was that bigger should be better.
)I believe there is an optimum diameter but that may vary a bit depending on material and topology.
Andre Visser said:
A little close to being quantifiable and measurable?
Welding cable is a great DIY resource. I am a believer in things you can go out and buy direct in any quantity (keeps it market price). Welding cable is incredibly flexible for its guage (very multistrand), the large wire usually found at HD or Lowes is unusable since you need a pipe bending brake. Most electrical supply stores sell everything you need. There are screw on lugs usually but a good marine/solar store will have everything you need for hammer-on termination.
The closest thing to a monoblock and no cable. The "most transparent" Cardas cable for instance is over 400pF/ft.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: An illusion that will not survive to a fair blind
Well, 'measure different' isn't a precise thing. As was alluded to earlier, in real measurements there will always be tolerances. With good test equipment, all cables (or amplifiers, speakers, etc) will always measure different from each other, there's no such thing as "exactly the same" when you're talking continuous values like dB, V, A, pF, nH or Ohms. Even if you measure the same cable twice, you'll get slightly different results because of noise in the measurement. In the real world, with real measurements (other than "counting" measurements) there is ALWAYS a difference. So some sort of tolerance would have to be assumed to be 'insignificant' to get anywhere. It might be a good idea to also listen-test two cables of the same type, but different lengths (maybe 2:1?) so there would be some confidence that a given amount of variations in capacitance, inductance, resistance is below the expected audibility. Then cables made to clone those parameters might be considered "close enough".
Brett said:
Well, 'measure different' isn't a precise thing. As was alluded to earlier, in real measurements there will always be tolerances. With good test equipment, all cables (or amplifiers, speakers, etc) will always measure different from each other, there's no such thing as "exactly the same" when you're talking continuous values like dB, V, A, pF, nH or Ohms. Even if you measure the same cable twice, you'll get slightly different results because of noise in the measurement. In the real world, with real measurements (other than "counting" measurements) there is ALWAYS a difference. So some sort of tolerance would have to be assumed to be 'insignificant' to get anywhere. It might be a good idea to also listen-test two cables of the same type, but different lengths (maybe 2:1?) so there would be some confidence that a given amount of variations in capacitance, inductance, resistance is below the expected audibility. Then cables made to clone those parameters might be considered "close enough".
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