An illusion that will not survive to a fair blind
A to B comparison.
The main problem is to submit those believers to make those testings.... because the result will be shame on them.
The test delivers a certificate the one was fooled...that he has trashed his money.... and this... no one likes.
Well... let it be folks..the ones sold that stuff, the illusionists, well, they need money to buy a new Lamborghini Murcielago...and was fair to be rich seeling illusions... they listen, and fooling themselves, feeling the sound different... so..illusionists are making people happy, and customer go thinking they paid a good price for the special cable quality.
If strong enougth..some may hung themselves using the cable after a fair, blind, A to B comparison.
Carlos
A to B comparison.
The main problem is to submit those believers to make those testings.... because the result will be shame on them.
The test delivers a certificate the one was fooled...that he has trashed his money.... and this... no one likes.
Well... let it be folks..the ones sold that stuff, the illusionists, well, they need money to buy a new Lamborghini Murcielago...and was fair to be rich seeling illusions... they listen, and fooling themselves, feeling the sound different... so..illusionists are making people happy, and customer go thinking they paid a good price for the special cable quality.
If strong enougth..some may hung themselves using the cable after a fair, blind, A to B comparison.
Carlos
Re: An illusion that will not survive to a fair blind
Well Carlos I'm delighted to inform you you're 100% mistaken. I know that cables "sound" different or if you prefer cause the system to sound different and it's not a matter of faith! I have submitted & passed manuel DBTs & SBTs. I've offered to prove I can pass such tests more than a few times with the only stipulations being:
a) The wires are manuelly switched, with no ABX involved ---{of course the wires would be hidden & I'd never seen the person manuelly switching the wires so so subtle or unconcious clues can be given.}
b) Either I'm intimately familair with the room and system that's in it or allowed to become intimately familair with the system and the room it's in.
The results revealed the only the shame should be from those people who insist wires don't sound different. Furthermore these tests delivered a certificate that proved I wasn't fooled and I hadn't trashed my money.
There's no illusion involved with sonic differences in interconnects and speaker wires. While they don't ALL sound vastly different, some do. All that's required to hear the differences in wires ---{if and when they exist}--- is a system that's able to reslove the differences, an audio system & room that the test subject is intimately familair with and a person who's trained his ear/brain to recognise when such differences are present.
Thetubeguy1954
destroyer X said:
Well Carlos I'm delighted to inform you you're 100% mistaken. I know that cables "sound" different or if you prefer cause the system to sound different and it's not a matter of faith! I have submitted & passed manuel DBTs & SBTs. I've offered to prove I can pass such tests more than a few times with the only stipulations being:
a) The wires are manuelly switched, with no ABX involved ---{of course the wires would be hidden & I'd never seen the person manuelly switching the wires so so subtle or unconcious clues can be given.}
b) Either I'm intimately familair with the room and system that's in it or allowed to become intimately familair with the system and the room it's in.
The results revealed the only the shame should be from those people who insist wires don't sound different. Furthermore these tests delivered a certificate that proved I wasn't fooled and I hadn't trashed my money.
There's no illusion involved with sonic differences in interconnects and speaker wires. While they don't ALL sound vastly different, some do. All that's required to hear the differences in wires ---{if and when they exist}--- is a system that's able to reslove the differences, an audio system & room that the test subject is intimately familair with and a person who's trained his ear/brain to recognise when such differences are present.
Thetubeguy1954
Re: Re: An illusion that will not survive to a fair blind
Got to set the baseline before doing any testing.
c) that the system is measured with both to ensure there is no obvious and audible difference in FR.thetubeguy1954 said:
Got to set the baseline before doing any testing.
Re: Re: Re: An illusion that will not survive to a fair blind
Till a few minutes ago we knew that it was the cables that would be measured.Why doesn't any one agree/decides to make a diy cable to mimick tubeguy's chosen cable?Match the two cables by measurements and "know how"and let the system and TG to do the rest.Does any one worry that two cables that will measure the same will sound different so we have to match the system?If yes,then, that sounds like cables sound different.
Brett said:
Till a few minutes ago we knew that it was the cables that would be measured.Why doesn't any one agree/decides to make a diy cable to mimick tubeguy's chosen cable?Match the two cables by measurements and "know how"and let the system and TG to do the rest.Does any one worry that two cables that will measure the same will sound different so we have to match the system?If yes,then, that sounds like cables sound different.
Panicos, if I understand correctly, nobody said all cables sound the same, only those that measure the same, sound the same. 😕 I can live with that. 
Hi Andre.Correct,that's why I'm wondering why insist measuring the system before the test,since the two cables will measure the same? 🙂
Andre Visser said:Panicos, if I understand correctly, nobody said all cables sound the same, only those that measure the same, sound the same. 😕 I can live with that.
Still not quite right.
Try this one:
"With an amplifier of reasonable stability, differences between cables that do not alter the system frequency response or level more than 0.1 dB in the range of 20Hz-20kHz will not be audible in a controlled listening test." It's a much broader statement than yours, but 100% supported by all available data at this point. Still waiting for any actual evidence of the contrary...
SY,statements are well understood.Would you accept in case of a test through the forum to try and make a cable using any materials you want,in order to mimick in terms of LCR and shielding the one TG or any other will choose as his "reference"?Could you make one just by knowing these parameters without peeking by studying that "reference's" construction?
EDIT: I forgot this 🙂 🙂 🙂
EDIT: I forgot this 🙂 🙂 🙂
Probably so, yes. It would be better to know the driving source and load, just so I know what the tolerance is. No use making it a more difficult problem than it needs to be.
Any competently designed amplifier will not show any differences with shielding of the cables unless you're in a pathological RF area and the run is long.
Any competently designed amplifier will not show any differences with shielding of the cables unless you're in a pathological RF area and the run is long.
SY said:
The simulations in the Audio Critic article show larger differences than that between cables, not that I believe freq response measurements show all cable differences.
SY, would you say for example all cables of 2,5sq mm twisted together, (same length) will sound the same?
SY,
I believe this is irrelevant.If the system and one cable is chosen and agreed by all,then what's left to complete is another cable that measures the same as the chosen one.If both cables measure the same,theoretically there will be no difference.Remember that the srongest argument was as Andre said,that cables that measure the same cannot "sound"different.
EDIT:By irrelevant,I mean,to know the driving source and load.Also,I mentioned shielding in case you want to include one in the diy cable.
I believe this is irrelevant.If the system and one cable is chosen and agreed by all,then what's left to complete is another cable that measures the same as the chosen one.If both cables measure the same,theoretically there will be no difference.Remember that the srongest argument was as Andre said,that cables that measure the same cannot "sound"different.
EDIT:By irrelevant,I mean,to know the driving source and load.Also,I mentioned shielding in case you want to include one in the diy cable.
The question becomes, how closely do the eq impedances have to match in order to meet the "same frequency response" criterion. Why spend effort, time, and money trying to match to 1% when (perhaps) 20% will do?
Assuming that the lumped L, C, and R differences do not cause a frequency response difference more than 0.1dB with the specified driving and load impedances, the cables will be indistinguishable by listening, so long as the listener is not cued by other means (e.g., peeking, switching noises, differential switching delays...).
SY said:
If you made it worthwhile I would accept that challenge. A few years ago I approached one of the online cable challenges about taking their money when they set a similar set of rules but it was made clear that I would be "cheating" when I checked if how it would be done would be accepted. I got the impression that people had already taken and/or tried to take the test doing something similar. Only audiophiles like TubeGuy were allowed to take the challenge and not people who knew how audio equipment functioned (or could be made to function).
It was interesting observing the Pear cable challenge of Randi a year or two ago when he was initially strongly bating audiophiles for a period of a few days and then appeared to back off. My guess was that someone informed him about how to pass cable challenges.
The point is that if you give away control of the environment, source and active components they can be used to drive a nonlinearity in a region outside 20-20k where the two cables are significantly different and alias back something audible. You seem to be aware that this can be done with amplifier instability which has the added advantage of being a possibly "natural" part of expensive audiophile amplifiers.
Andy: yes, Dr. Cynic has observed more than once that it's easier to find a badly designed $20,000 amplifier than a badly designed $400 amplifier. Sad, but true.
SY said:
The reason I believe is better to have a diy matched "perfectly"is because,if TG for example detects differences,then factors other than L,C,R might be responsible for the cdifferences.That will be a result exactly on the biggest argument of this thread.If L,C,R are believed to be the only factors in a cable's "performance"then I guess the diy cable does not have to be expensive,so cost will not be a problem as you say.Haven't we read posts that said any metal will do?It is also a challenge for the diy to prove opinions and claims.
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