I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

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#3,774
There are a significant number of people posting in support of cables making a difference to the sound of their hifi systems but the few I have partially checked do not seem to be regular DIY loudspeaker builders. Is there anybody posting in support of the sound cables that is a regular DIY loudspeaker builder?
 
#3,777
Panicos K said:
Originally posted by terry j
Unlike Mike Lavigne one would presume. The sole reason he could not hear the difference between $30 000 speaker cables and a hundred dollar or so monster cables is because he was not trained. A randomly selected student if you will. Or he has a bad system. Or a bad room. Or something...anything...other than the very slight possibility that the emperor is naked.


Terry,this is the exaggeration I was talking about before.Why testing a $30000 cable to a $100 one unless of course someone is thinking of buying such a cable....... A $30000 gives anyone the right,and no one will dissagree,to call the manufacturer anyway he likes🙂 Why not testing for example a $30 which many here will insist it is even too much,with a $300 one?There the possibilities to hear the difference are much more,provided that we choose a cable from a true manufacturer and not one who rebrands imported cables and creates myths that even true audiophiles laugh when hearing them.As for true/genuine manufacturers,we all know some,or more than some🙂
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Ah, think I get a little better what you meant. When you first spoke of 'exageration' I thought you meant I was using 'exageration' (and distorting the points) to try and 'win the argument', but you meant that it is irrelevant that one is $30000 and one is $300?? Did I understand you now?

That's as maybe, and you should know ME by now, as far as I am concerned anyone who spends $300 on cables is a mug!! ha ha (j/king) let alone $30000

It was linked to because Andre mentioned he had not seen any tests done (trying to remember the words) that were 'halfway decent', so I linked to it. I also said that there was no doubt that many can/will still dispute it.

The 'beauty' of this particular test was many (again from memory), it involved a 'trained listener' per Andres definition, it was done on the trained listeners system (and BTW, those pics in the link are old, he longer has those speakers they have been upgraded -changed at least- to new ones that were used in the test), the test was done according to a protocol he agreed to and under which he was absolutely certain he could distinguish the cables and it was done in an environment that I hope most will agree it would be very hard to better.

In other words all of the flaws of dbts listed by Andre 'off the top of his head 'and others were well and truly ticked. (except of course for the fact of him being tested, that is kinda unavoidable)

I was not the one who demanded that one be a silly priced cable worth $30000? So why this point ($30000) has been latched on to by many is a bit beyond me.

I do find it humourous that the point being made is 'objectivists always go straight to the point of absurd cable prices, why do they do that??'.

Why is that so funny?

Ahh, because we have the equally snobbish (inverted snobbery if you will) of 'I too think $30000 cables is stupid, MY DIY are so good I can easily smash $30000 cables'.

Ha, talk about hypocrisy. I am quite open in saying 'you do not need expensive cables, there will be very little if any sonic difference so why spend misplaced money'. (ooooh, why do they attack the price to distort the argument)

You say 'Ha, I am so good at cable making I can pick up bits of wire laying around, my sonic difference is so much better so why spend misplaced money'.

Sorry guys. EDIT..this is probably not clear. WE ridicule the notion of expensive cable prices on the grounds of the unlikelihood of any perceiveable differences.

YOU ridicule expensive cables because your diy ones are better (the cable equivalent of the speaker guy who throws a speaker together then boasts 'mine are better than expensive WW's-they probably are!! actually, but the point stands)

But you are ridiculing expensive cables whilst trying to argue that 'we' always resort to that cheap tactic. No, you are being hypocritical.




Now of course we cannot extrapolate those results in every way more broadly. But we can tease out some general points.

It follows a very familiar path.

There are clear night and day differences between cables. Completely unmistakeable. Trial runs done sighted in the test produced the same results, an unshakeable confidence in the ease of the test. The difference was immediate and large, think the quote went something like 'even randii would be able to hear those differences' (remember it was getting ready to win the million dollars hence the randi reference in that context).

The familiar path continued of course. Once he did not know which was which, he could not differentiate. What we get out of this report, which we never get in a potted summary full of dry number results, is the personal.

Here is a guy that no-one in their right mind would ever dispute is passionate about audio quality in the extreme. All should agree that he has not skimped on doing what he feels is important in achieveing the very best reproduction he possibly can, far far more than most could even comprehend.

And he describes the emotions and disbelief he felt when once blinded he realised that they sounded the same. Someone here (? or elsewhere?) talked about personal audio epiphanies when the person changed a cable and got different sound (no mention of better etc by me for this case). Yes. Sighted.

In the sudden hypocritical changing of the goalposts by the diy cable makers and their righteous snobbery, they have forgotten a little point.

I myself a few posts ago pointed out this very same point. As this is a diy forum, no doubt most here would have made their own cables, hence the 'rip off' aspect in the main would NOT apply here. Nonetheless, the entire rip off industry IS supported by the insistence of audible cable differences whether or not you guys have diyed them.

I also mentioned, and was agreed with, that really if there are real actual audible differences at least ensure that you have every important aspect fully sorted THEN go chasing cables.

Mike Lavigne we could argue DID have every other important aspect as fully sorted as he could, and still was unable to pick cable differences (we can forget about the dollar values, that simply add and element of hilarity to it...or is it pathos?)

Ignore the brand name, ignore the dollar values, just see the all too familiar script.




Could someone please respond honestly to this hypothetical. So we do not get personal, I'll stay with Mike ok?

The great cable switcher in the middle of the night gets into Mikes listening room and swaps Mikes cables out. He puts into Mikes system a set of cables he has brought with him.

The cables switcher is a professional at his craft, he does things properly. What he has put into Mikes system is a set of cables he has painstakingly prepared beforehand, and this is his final gig before retirement, and will be his crowning achievement.

He has crafted a duplicate set of Mikes cables, exact in every perceiveable way, weight, flexibilty, appearance, terminations etc. It is completely indistinguishable by every test known to man...he has been cable switching for years and the knowledge he has accumulated will unfortunately disappear when he dies. He is the last of his kind.

But he is a cable switcher, so what he has done is put 'normal everyday bog standard wire' in those cables.Apart from that one fact, there really IS no other difference.

The question then entirely becomes...as he has NO other means of doing so....can Mike tell, by sonic differences alone, that the cable has been switched?

You must answer yes of course, that is the entire stance you have.

But why? There is absolutely nothing in that 'report' that would even come close to suggesting 'yes he could'. Yet you will maintain that he can. Or that you could outfox the great cable switcher.
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#3,778
This piece of 80year old very rare copper should do the trick 😀
 

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#3,779
Bit off the subject at hand, but headohones seem to be very dependent on the type of cable that's used - some rather expensive prices here too, but generally, excellent results.

It's quite surprising that hardly any of the headphone manufacturers have an easy system for changing the cables especially as the cable has as much, or more, effect on headphones sound as the amp, cable, speaker combination.
 
#3,780
terry j said:


http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/lavigneroom.htm

Sorry, my mistake. I just assumed most would know of it, it's 'pretty famous'..or so I thought.



Got it. Like those here that have a good system and claim that there is no point of good cables on a cheap system, nor bad cables on an expensive one. Got it.

Unlike Mike Lavigne one would presume. The sole reason he could not hear the difference between $30 000 speaker cables and a hundred dollar or so monster cables is because he was not trained. A randomly selected student if you will. Or he has a bad system. Or a bad room. Or something...anything...other than the very slight possibility that the emperor is naked.

Got it.

But also take your point on experience with testing. Only trouble is (apart from alex) there always seems to be that first little problem, finding those willing to take part in the first, then second and so on to become trained in the art of doing blind tests.

I also learned that until you roll your sleeves up and organise and do a dbt as best you can, you simply cannot predict beforehand all the little 'faults or 'if I could I'd do that bit differently'.

But hey, at least some of us try.

Others take the easy road and just sit behind their keyboards and criticise.

I had to laugh at myself when I saw my long post (just felt like chatting) against the brevity of others. So for now, no more gasbagging.

Feels rather cold tho, but so be it.
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It's about time for me to put in my 2 cents worth on the subject of Mike Lavigne's "test."

First of all, I've known Mike for many years and have listened to his system a number of times (and it's very good, as is his listening room). Mike has been a judge of "The Puget Sound! DIY Speaker Contest" since the first one and I can tell you that his evaluations of the entries, correlates very closely with the measured response of the DUT (which, as a judge, he's not allowed to see).
My personal opinion is that his hearing and auditory memory is as good, or better, than anyone that I've ever met.
He (and I) have participated in several cable and IC DBT and ABX tests held by the Pacific Northwest Audio Society over the years, and while the results of the group were not statistically significant, he felt that if he listened through his system he would be able to distinguish differences reliably.
I might add that I was invited by Mike to attend the test mentioned, but unfortunately had a pressing prior commitment.

I am of the opinion (based on a funded research project which I was involved in during the mid 1970's) that properly designed cables will sound alike, which Mike disagrees with. The important factor in this however, is that he's intellectually honest and was willing to go through the whole thing to find out for himself.

While some may not agree, my opinion, based on what I've read and subsequent conversations with Mike, and others that were there, is that the testing protocol was done with the highest degree of rigor possible.

Best Regards,
TerryO
 
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