analog_sa said:
That's what makes me really sceptical of a lot of things in the audio world. There is no money in a cure in fact there is a lot more money in making people sick with the treatment.
It is a real big problem to conduct meaningful DBTs. For example, ABX-testing with seamless switching (especially when only the same song or a part of it is looped) does not reveal the kind of details that we might think it would. Had to learn that the hard way. Also I think full blind tests (the listeners not knowing anything about the test or even if there is a test) are too time comsuming and close to impossible to conduct in a rigorous fashion. Point is, listening is a learning process...doug20 said:
But I'm out of the public DBT discussion anyway (but I still do a lot of them, personally).
- Klaus
flyingtele said:
I don't understand how you've come up with the idea of such a mish-mash and i don't think completely random cable designs have much chance of success. More interesting is how do you intend to test them.
analog_sa said:
Well, all I intend to for testing them is to plug them into my system and compare them to some pre-built cables, keeping everything else the same. I do not mind if its a total failure or a waste of time, as I would not know otherwise and this is not something I have messed with before. As for the design, no real basis behind it. Sure, completely random cables dont have much chance for success, BUT there is still the chance that it does succeed. I just looked at what I had lying around and how I could put it to some sort of use and maybe learn something in the process, after all this site is based around DIY audio, and is that not what I am doing, by making DIY interconnects?
Id like to measure their impedance/capacitance/inductance but don't have test equipment that measures in small enough ranges. DC resistance test was 0.0 ohms, but thats the limit of the meter and doesn't tell me much.
that response makes me think you don't want to hear why the cables made an audible difference.doug20 said:
flyingtele said:
That's fine as long as you have some known reference. Some diy cat5, solid silver in teflon tubes or entry level Audioquest, Cardas or even Monster will all serve as a recognisable reference. If you use a passive preamp the sonic signatures will be even clearer.
AndrewT said:
No, I do want to how cables can make an audible difference. Im all tests showing there is an audiable difference.
You say you can not find a cable that measures the same (unless I read your post wrong)?
Do you have those measurements and the cables you have tested?
btw, are we talking about speaker wire or interconnects here? It seems the discussion might be jumping back and forth.
Gee, this discussion is moving fast!
Terry, my suggestion was right there in my previous post, to which you had replied. I suggested you try replacing every cable in your system at the same time, including power cables, and to make even more sure you can hear the difference, do so with silver cables (borrowing may be required). The fact that you know the sound of your own system will help you to hear the difference more easily and clearly. After that, you can try individual cables to your heart's content, but at least you will know that cables can make a difference and be able to move on from there.
One of the biggest difficulties faced in any kind of test comes about when the listeners do not know the sound of the test system sufficiently well. It is vastly easier to hear differences in a system you know well than in an unfamiliar one, although many can still detect differences in unfamiliar sets with sufficient concentration.
Terry, my suggestion was right there in my previous post, to which you had replied. I suggested you try replacing every cable in your system at the same time, including power cables, and to make even more sure you can hear the difference, do so with silver cables (borrowing may be required). The fact that you know the sound of your own system will help you to hear the difference more easily and clearly. After that, you can try individual cables to your heart's content, but at least you will know that cables can make a difference and be able to move on from there.
One of the biggest difficulties faced in any kind of test comes about when the listeners do not know the sound of the test system sufficiently well. It is vastly easier to hear differences in a system you know well than in an unfamiliar one, although many can still detect differences in unfamiliar sets with sufficient concentration.
say what??
This is just stupid urban myth... nothing factual to base that kind of obnoxious medical statement on.... hope you're not commenting on medical issues here...
Key said:
This is just stupid urban myth... nothing factual to base that kind of obnoxious medical statement on.... hope you're not commenting on medical issues here...
So I take it that you haven't bothered to read any of the fundamental papers by Greiner (an excellent scientist and a truly nice fellow) dating back to 1979?
terry j said:
Why not come over for a tri-nations rugby game and visit me? 😉
terry j said:
Just many years of experience in comparative tests, I can't talk for reviewers.
terry j said:
OK, sorry for being unclear, perhaps I should have said 'any test', (not only blind). The idea of being 'tested' can be quite distracting if you are not used to it.
terry j said:
Again talking about the so-called tests that 'proof' no difference.
I did not claim to have read them all but you are welcome to show me one.
terry j said:
Terry, this thread is about whether cables can make a difference, as soon as it is shown that cables can influence the sound, it quickly changes to 'cables that measure the same', I would like to test two cables that measure the same if I can get some. FWIW I have tested speaker cables of exactly the same topology but with different quality copper and the difference was very noticable.
terry j said:
😕
I will have to reread because I actually thought that I was agreeing with you when posting.
I haven't read this entire thread, and this has probably been said numerous times, but both arguments have merit. I just can't believe this has been going on for so long!
Of course cables make a difference! on the lower/mid range end, is it worth the hype of the manufacturers? noway.. but you can diy for less. On the super high end, is it worth the exponential increase in price of the materials? well, thats up to how much money you have, I guess. But going all silver at the perfect diameter wire for your system would certainly make a difference. A difference you could measure.
If you accept that, you've gotta believe that everything else, all cable material quality in between, is some sort of decreasing slope from there, no matter how subtle.
I guess, if this were a consumer review forum, then maybe no, some more expensive brand wouldn't make that much difference, but since this is DIY, and we're doing the research, and the best we can for the money we can spend, then yeah, it can make a difference.
I should add, about the subtlety, humans can detect things that our machines cannot. Our ears can do/detect far more complex things than any man made instrument. Look at the crazy 3d structure, w/ sensing points all the way along it.
-on that point, it's been proven that people w/ hearing in only one ear can 3 dimensionally recognize where sounds originate. Something a machine cannot.
Of course cables make a difference! on the lower/mid range end, is it worth the hype of the manufacturers? noway.. but you can diy for less. On the super high end, is it worth the exponential increase in price of the materials? well, thats up to how much money you have, I guess. But going all silver at the perfect diameter wire for your system would certainly make a difference. A difference you could measure.
If you accept that, you've gotta believe that everything else, all cable material quality in between, is some sort of decreasing slope from there, no matter how subtle.
I guess, if this were a consumer review forum, then maybe no, some more expensive brand wouldn't make that much difference, but since this is DIY, and we're doing the research, and the best we can for the money we can spend, then yeah, it can make a difference.
I should add, about the subtlety, humans can detect things that our machines cannot. Our ears can do/detect far more complex things than any man made instrument. Look at the crazy 3d structure, w/ sensing points all the way along it.
-on that point, it's been proven that people w/ hearing in only one ear can 3 dimensionally recognize where sounds originate. Something a machine cannot.
hihopes said:
Ahh OK, then I missed it, sorry my fault.
The point you and Andre make (and others of course) IS a totally valid one, you are more likely to be able to hear subtle differences (via cables for example) on your own system, simply because you are most intimately familiar with it. I doubt anyone would dispute that?? So, recognising the truth of that, means that I be the one to travel to the persons place.
(and to directly address your suggestion, it is almost impossible for me to do the test you describe, or at least highly problematic. For starters, my system is triamped, so straight away simply multiply everything YOU have to do for that test by three, except of course the interconnect between source and deqx unit, that stays at one.
To avoid having the RH speaker cables laying on the floor across a doorway, I had to pull up the floor and route the cables to the speaker to go under the floor in the doorway area.
The connections to the speakers themselves are speakons rather than banana or anything else.
So realistically, it probably won't happen, even tho I know if I could that it would be something I'd try as I like to test things rather than talk about it, or at least find out for myself whether or not something suggested is true or not).
In any case, do you actually get on the net in a discussion like this and respond to a claim like 'I was at jacks place, and he changed the cables, and boy even I who was a sceptic could hear the difference' ...or.... 'The dealer then swapped the interconnects and the soundstage just opened up massively and I left with those little babies clutched tightly in my hands' by correcting them with 'sorry, that cannot be true as you did not test them in your own system. Do you do that?
I doubt it, you would let those claims pass without inspection...because it agrees with you mindset on the matter. Are you able to explain to me the conflict between your POV just now (that you need to do it on your own system...in order to hear what must be the very small sonic differences...else why the need to use your own system?) with your 'blind' acceptance of every anecdotal report of sighted sonic differences?? (see, things CAN be done blind ha ha)
OTOH, YOU say that it is possible to detect differences on an unfamiliar system with 'sufficient concentration', yet elsewhere we know that the act of testing itself produces stresses such that the test always fails??
Which is it? You can or cannot pass a tests, it is possible or not possible to do it on unfamiliar systems...I am so confused!!
And WE keep changing the goalposts??
Andre Visser said:
Ahh, the thought appeals on so many levels! We cold also do a test together!! I am sure you would be able to work out an acceptable one, as you are on top of all the flaws ion every test done to date. And it would by default be on a system you are familiar with.
OR you can come over here, and once here we can see a tri nations test in TWO countries!!
Thanks for your honesty, and the removal of one of your obstacles to a successful test. You are in fact not trained, so listeners needing to be trained we can strike off your list yeah??
So a sighted test is also unreliable?? We agree then. Making progress, good to see how we can progress as long as the emotions are kept out of it!
So we cannot take the results of a sighted test, nor can we take the results of a non-sighted test. So we are back to belief-which you always railed against.
I have NO problem with that. Zip, zilch, nada. 'I believe the cables I am using make a difference and that is why I use them'.
'Cables DO make a difference, and to maximise your systems potential you need 'proper cables' (never defined mind you.)
Hang on, totally different, one is completely acceptable, the other is not. You can not argue against preference, you can argue against faulty 'facts' (yeah a contradiction, but you get my point) and concepts.
There would be little point. They are a test, so by definition you would reject them. Except for the sighted anecdotal tests, those are ok.
See the different levels of proof at work here?? Every test that shows cables being 'hard to identify blind' (see my lack of absolutes??) you reject because 'the listeners are not trained', or 'it was done on an unfamiliar system' or 'the test itself produces stress' or or or
But on the flip side (and you need to look at the inferences to understand this), the flip side suddenly becomes 'as soon as it is shown that cables can influence the sound....'
Can you actually see that? What test where has ever showed a better than chance result of picking cables?? And that is despite we knowing that they can!! So there is at least a disparity between the reported magnitude of change and the actual?? (again, note that I do not ever claim that cables do not or cannot sound different, we know they can. But I do vehemently dispute the constant claim that these changes are massive or undeniable or whatever.)
And then, even now, you go on in the very next breath and claim that going from copper to silver was a very ntoiceable change!!
Marry all that up for me! In order to pick these low level changes we need to do it on out own systems, be completely free from testing stress and be fully trained vs it was (so) completely obvious (that even deaf freddy could hear it)
Can you see the problem at the bottom of all this???
So I have been accused of verbiage when I talk about the resolution to these thing laying in the 'mental/personal' domain than the actual acoustic domain.
Can you not see this at work here, using these posts as an example???
SY said:
I have no doubt that differences I have heard in cables in my system is a combination of the cable construction and interaction with the system.
Nothing magic there, but audible and measurable.
I'm won't discount the idea that there may be some unmeasurable factors (dielectric, silver vs, copper...), but if they exist, they are not magic either.
terry j said:-snip-
Anyway, moving and advancing the topic as Panikos suggests, first off you can easily hear cable differences too Alex?
Excellent, in the spirit of adventure and learning...plus meeting fellow people who love audio, would you be interested in us doing something together on this?? Dunno if you have other friends local that might also join in...but I am sure we'd at least have a fun and educational time.
I am willing (as I have made known to others) to travel to your place so we can make it happen. If you feel that is something you'd be OK with, hey between us all here we can decide the protocol and make it as robust as we can.
I doubt we will be able to eliminate and foresee all the problems...those often come up AFTER you have done it (we do not do this everyday)...but we should be able to make a good stab at it??
And, if you cannot pick the cables, then it will be because they have not yet been enabled ha ha!!
Hang on...you haven;t enabled them TOO have you??
All in the spirit of joshing and good fun!
Interested??
Don't know if I "can easily hear cable differences". I do know that I have heard differences in my system.
I would be interested in exploring further, and no, my cables are not EnABL'd.
Although, all the speakers I own are EnABL'd. 😀
hihopes said:
Yes!
Familiarity with the system, the music played and the room it plays in does make it easier to hear any differences that may exist.
Cheers,
Alex
Alex from Oz said:
Cool, without quibbling with words, what I meant was that you feel you CAN/HAVE heard differences between cables in your system, additionally also feel that they are real and independent of things such as 'level mismatches, knowing which is which' or somesuch???
In other words those differences exist, and as such are differentiable.
AND (fantastic news) you are interested in exploring this!
I actually love Canberra, so a weekend down there doing this and other things is no impost at all, would be pleasurable actually.
So, do we start a new thread where everybody can have an input in the interests of making this as robust as possible??
Might be a bit premature just now, but can those who have thoughts just start chucking them in here, as tubeguy did for example, he had a set of conditions that he would not violate.
That is fine, I have two that I will not violate...that they be level matched (well that normally only applies to electronics, NON level matched is a possible condition for cable differences, so we leave that as is) ok, so I have ONE condition that I will not violate!!
That at no time is Alex aware of which is which by any means other than the sound.
Throw 'em in here guys, this is great.
thanks Alex, good to see you have the courage of your convictions. Hmm, wonder if that may even extend to you being willing to have me test enable somehow??😀
Any mates you have that would be interested?? Do we need that or just the two of us is ok?
I found an interesting link here
http://www.digitalaudionet.com/files/ConstantCurrentImpedanceTesting.pdf
It basically shows the effect of the skin effect on cables, and shows how impedance increases with frequency increase, so if a cable manufacturer is aware of this and constructs a core to actively fight the skin effect, it will have substantially lower impedance at high frequencies and will sound brighter and clearer. Also the skin effect varies with different conductor materials, and thats why different metals sound different.
http://www.digitalaudionet.com/files/ConstantCurrentImpedanceTesting.pdf
It basically shows the effect of the skin effect on cables, and shows how impedance increases with frequency increase, so if a cable manufacturer is aware of this and constructs a core to actively fight the skin effect, it will have substantially lower impedance at high frequencies and will sound brighter and clearer. Also the skin effect varies with different conductor materials, and thats why different metals sound different.
Here's a great link for people with nothing better to do than talk about wire.
sp
http://www.volunteer.com.au/
sp
http://www.volunteer.com.au/
You post a paper from a manufacturer of expensive cables as proof? Skin effect has been known for over a century. It is not hard to work around, nor is it expensive to do, nor particularly significant in the audio band.flyingtele said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/skin-effect-relevance-in-speaker-cables/
I believe the reason why it will be easier to detect differences in your own system is because the system is set up with prefered items therefore you can say there is a "reference"which you expect to change/sound different by using another cable.In an uknown system you start without that "reference"so obviously you have to add the element of preference between the two cables to the effort of picking up their differences.In a totally uknown system that for some reason you may not even like,concentration needed for picking up cable differences can be very weak.I have noticed that when sometimes friends ask my opinion on something in their systems.True,I could have an opinion but it may not be as "accurate"as when I listen to my system.
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