OK SY, I understand, there are differences between cables but there are no differences between cables.
You've been propping up that straw man so long, you're beginning to think he's real. Read the Davis and Greiner papers, you might find them interesting and useful.
If finally the test will take place,I would suggest that TG1954 chooses his cable,and Terry or any other,take measurements on all parameters they consider necessary,and build their cable by themselves to mimick TG's cable,choosing any conductors and connectors they wish.This way,the test result will not only show audible differences or not audible,but also that the DIY can equal at least a factory made one
hihopes said:
You do the listening tests with all BIAS removed and your listening position FIXED?
I too can buy anything I want and test lots of different products and of course there are differences when I do uncontrolled tests.
BUT.....
Put all the testing controls in place and amazingly those differences dissappear....hmmm. How can that be? Maybe its because all that BIAS overrides anything that the ears send to the brain!
Another problem outside of BIAS is that people do not realize that they need to stand in the exact same position for each listening test, even an inch or two difference will give you a different frequency response (even with the same cables).
Essentially, few people on the subjective side ever control their tests which means their opinion on this topic to me is scientifically invalid.
AndrewT said:
Please post the difference in resistence between 6" of cable and 3 feet of cable??.....the speaker has another 4 feet of cable inside too. Removing it does not impact the resistence, it does not alter the audio frequency range since we can only remove so much or the drivers wont work at all 😉
Could you point me to the scientific study or any data to support your opinion? Im willing to learn but it has to be valid science.
Panicos K said:
This would be an interesting side discussion. I wonder how many high end cable makers could afford to sole source custom matierial? The number of cables that are rebranded and/or slightly remanufactured standard products would probably surprise a few folks.
Alex from Oz said:
Now that is an interesting read. Thankyou.
So, can we reach agreement that:
a) speaker cables can make an audible difference in a given system,
b) the difference depends on the system and the environment it operates in, and
c) these differences can be audible (or perhaps detectable by humans) but difficult (or unable) to be measured.
Perhaps we can burn some more bandwidth discussing interconnects?
Cheers,
Alex
Been said many times Alex, no-one has ever said that cables cannot sound different. We know the parameters that matter the most, and can easily predict the results vis simulation.
There is a particular audio critic that goes thru the whole thing, get's the actual values of L Rand C, and then shows via graphs exactly the end result.
If no-one has it handy and posts a link, I'll rustle it up myself some time soon.
Funny tho...why do these differences so easily heard magically disappear? Leads to all sorts of crazy theories, like the actual act of removing visual stimulus affects the hearing, blah forget it.
Anyway, moving and advancing the topic as Panikos suggests, first off you can easily hear cable differences too Alex?
Excellent, in the spirit of adventure and learning...plus meeting fellow people who love audio, would you be interested in us doing something together on this?? Dunno if you have other friends local that might also join in...but I am sure we'd at least have a fun and educational time.
I am willing (as I have made known to others) to travel to your place so we can make it happen. If you feel that is something you'd be OK with, hey between us all here we can decide the protocol and make it as robust as we can.
I doubt we will be able to eliminate and foresee all the problems...those often come up AFTER you have done it (we do not do this everyday)...but we should be able to make a good stab at it??
And, if you cannot pick the cables, then it will be because they have not yet been enabled ha ha!!
Hang on...you haven;t enabled them TOO have you??
All in the spirit of joshing and good fun!
Interested??
terry j said:
There are a few reasons, using unfamiliar systems of debatable quality, using untrained listeners, all 'tests' cause pressure to perform on the listener resulting in him concentrating on the test and not the music.....
The list may be much longer but I still have to read about a properly conducted test.
Then as soon as one can tell the difference between cables, the story change to "cables that measure the same", I still have to find two different cables that measure the same, if they exist, I would like to test them.
Andre Visser said:
Every test I have read that has been posted online is with TRAINED listeniners. Heck I have read about speaker companies stopping a production of a speaker because after thinking it was an incredible speaker, they did a blind test on it and it SUCKED!!
There is no pressure in just listening without knowing the equipment.
The story never changes either, Im all for someone scientifically proving there is an audible difference in cables. Two questions I have that the "other" side ignores or can not answer honestly.
1. Why in over 50 years there has not been one scientifitically valid test to prove cables have audible differences?
2. Why don't you guys care about all the extra BIAS that goes with any unscientific audio listening experience. The price, looks, brand name has as much power over you as the actually sound so why not remove those extras and just listen to the sound?
btw, please post your measurements that show all these cables measuring different. Im interested in that data.
Doug,
did you read the whole text from audiodesignline, linked above?
"Cable sound" on itself (material-related, etc) is surely debatable, but "system sound" differences with different cables is real. Even when basic parameters (LCRG + basic geometric conctruction) are the same, there can be secondary effects (different modulation of the first-order parameters).
- Klaus
did you read the whole text from audiodesignline, linked above?
"Cable sound" on itself (material-related, etc) is surely debatable, but "system sound" differences with different cables is real. Even when basic parameters (LCRG + basic geometric conctruction) are the same, there can be secondary effects (different modulation of the first-order parameters).
- Klaus
I have first-hand info from a rather big taiwanese cable manufacturer (they don't even have a website, btw. They do B2B directly) and you don't want to know the details about "custom cables"...
I accept that there are reasons to do with amps (and/or other down line equipment) which may lead to the subjective experience of difference of sound between various cables.
In playing with home made tonearm wiring I have found the most telling results. The cartridge used was either an Audio Note Io [original Kondo version or a Koetsu (one off prototype model)]. At this level of sensitivity it is I suppose probable that the associated arm wiring will produce the apparent differences due to the fact that any quality of the cartridge or step-up will be more easily changed than will be the properties/performance say a big poweramp.
When, fifteen years ago, we were making up hand-made prototype cables and interconnects we did notice that in the case of interconnecting signal cables changes of connectors made as much difference to the subjective sound as did the cables themselves. The best were - strangely - almost the cheapest simplest types whereas the big bulky twist down locking RCAs were nowhere near as good sonically. Naturally enough soldered direct from board to board was the best compromise. I believe that there is good reason to take the plug as being worthy of measured investigation as much as the wires themselves.
I cannot go any further in describing the factors involved as it is all someone else's copyright or might appear to knock down certain makers products.
In playing with home made tonearm wiring I have found the most telling results. The cartridge used was either an Audio Note Io [original Kondo version or a Koetsu (one off prototype model)]. At this level of sensitivity it is I suppose probable that the associated arm wiring will produce the apparent differences due to the fact that any quality of the cartridge or step-up will be more easily changed than will be the properties/performance say a big poweramp.
When, fifteen years ago, we were making up hand-made prototype cables and interconnects we did notice that in the case of interconnecting signal cables changes of connectors made as much difference to the subjective sound as did the cables themselves. The best were - strangely - almost the cheapest simplest types whereas the big bulky twist down locking RCAs were nowhere near as good sonically. Naturally enough soldered direct from board to board was the best compromise. I believe that there is good reason to take the plug as being worthy of measured investigation as much as the wires themselves.
I cannot go any further in describing the factors involved as it is all someone else's copyright or might appear to knock down certain makers products.
KSTR said:
I did not until now...good test, good article to read. Its interesting to see how nothing changes on a 8 ohm load but for some reason the distortion levels change when connected to a complex load (the loudspeaker).
I wonder how they measured to load when connected to the speaker. I have done the Amp output measurement and I have done the cable end measurement to test for FR changes but never do their connection test.
Andre Visser said:
For sure there are reasons that can make it harder. That is why I am the one willing to do the travelling...and australia is a BIG place!!
Untrained listeners, care to tell me your training qualifications?? If you are trained, then excellent, can you tell me the qualifications of the many audio reviewers who wax rhapsodic?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_w5OVFV2Gsos/SVV_dEcrmcI/AAAAAAAAACU/T4rEDAWliz8/s320/ListenerPerformance.jpg
Hmmm, not particularly confidence inspiring is it? (arrgh, no data with it. You can read the accompanying text here
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/searc...d-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=5
Ahh, the old 'all tests cause them to fail' routine..first off, let's define test??
You evidently are able to hear the difference between cable when you insert them yeah? Ooookaaay then, in other words you are listening for (and detecting) differences between them....testing them using your ears as the measurement tool yeah??
So your claim that all 'tests' (your use of the word all, and your use of the inverted commas) cause pressure that leads to these failures we are discussing is patently untrue is it not?
After all you seem to have no difficulty in passing it, nor do ALL the other people who claim they can hear differences...
really, it is counterproductive to insist on absolutes to try and make your point (all, every etc etc). Remember, it only takes one counterproof, only one, to destroy your credibility. So better to not do it yeah?
Not one properly conducted test? You serious?? Not ONE..ever..ALL of them were flawed?? AT NO TIME???
Hmm, better let Sean Olive know that he has been wasting his professional life thinking he has been conducting proper tests, ...a guy on the internet said so.
You need to re-read the last page or so, I have seen quite a few statements admitting the truth of the matter, that cables CAN indeed sound different..hang on, you replied to me and I recall typing that exact same thing!! mentioned a link to the audio critic!
Get real...you now try and twist that to us changing the goal posts??!! And in any case, why would we need to? No-one has ever passed a test anyway!
Trouble is, and perhaps you have not grasped this yet, we are all reading the same thread, and we can all see what has been written and what has not.
So for you, in the space of only a few posts (ie same page, easy to scroll back up and check) to try and make absurd claims about what is written in front of everyones nose...well it's not a good look if you follow.
NEVER a good look, EVER. (some times absolutes do apply after all)
KSTR said:
I have been in the Warehousing/supply chain software industry for 20 years now and I have seen many, many operations out there that produce products for several "brands".
This is one of the reasons Im a skeptic when people say "They hear a difference", heck some people post that they hear a difference when I know its identical product.
As I posted above though, Im not against learning, Im only on these forums for that purpose and links like the one I just found are great to have for a reference and a better understanding.
I still question audibility since DBTs are all that matter to me and people seldom can hear a difference when all the bias is removed.
I am actually building a set of interconnects at the moment, I don't have any real hopes as its purely experimental, but depending on the outcome I may look further into the topic. Here is the thread about them and their construction etc
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147053
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147053
doug20 said:
Would it be ok to hear the difference once it's been proven? Are you going to hear them?
doug20 said:
50 years is a bit too long of a period. In 1959 most passive components really sucked and full range speakers either did not exist or showed horrible behaviour over most of the range. And high end audio had a miniscule cutomer base. Looking at cables is so counteruntuitive that it could only have started by a chance.
'76 is closer to the time when cables got any real attention. But why would scientists show any interest? It is simle to prove at the back of a napkin that cable effects in the audio range are insignificant. What more can any scientist desire? Cable companies probably do some research but it's mostly empirical because they need solutions which can actually produce revenue rather than publications. Not to mention that all the big ones spend much more on marketing and advertising than on research.
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