I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

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#3,661
thetubeguy1954 said:
{Quoted edited by TG1954}

Hello Again Terryj!

Yes I've offered to prove I can hear differences to anyone who wishes to test that ability. I'll even submit to a DBT provided:

1) The changes in wires are made manuelly and not via an ABX box. (Of course we'd use whatever means are required to prevent my seeing both:

a) any possible changes made or not made in the wires.
b) the person who may or may not have changed the wires. The second being done to prevent a Clever Hans incident from accidentially occuring)

2) We use a system I'm intimately familair with (that means components and room) or I'm allowed to become intimately familair with the components in the room I'm required to take the DBT in.

If those two stipulations are met I'm sure I can detect differences (when they're present) in some wires and audio components.

Terry I also thought we had been starting to communicate with each other with a level of respect that could lead to progress. I apologize for whatever I accidentially did that made you believe we weren't, "if" I'm who you were speaking of in this regard.

Thetubeguy1954
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Its a fair test, have you actually done it already?

I live 2 hours from you, kids are too young for disney though and the wife would say "No" to some audio testing taking up her time (as in she has to look after the kids 😉 )
 
#3,662
doug20 said:


Its a fair test, have you actually done it already?

I live 2 hours from you, kids are too young for disney though and the wife would say "No" to some audio testing taking up her time (as in she has to look after the kids 😉 )
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Sir, it would appear you need to go pants shopping!
:clown:

Seriously, though, surely she can give you a day to go see a new friend and play with your hifi? Babies are wired to be cuter to women than men anyway.
 
#3,663
analog_sa said:


Thank you for providing this exceedingly amusing background. When i was young, naive and too polite i tried to persuade "objectivist" - type acquaintances to take part in listening tests. They always had an excuse to avoid one. That was long before the internet and before i knew what a rabid objectivist meant.
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Analog_sa you're welcome to the free amusement! Personally I've given up on trying to get objectivists or perhaps it's just the lunatic fringe objectivists, from coming to witness my ability to deteremine differences in wires and other audio components.

Like you said they always come up with a myriad of excuses why the won't or shouldn't come. Real honest objectvists do exist but, I believe there's a vast and very vocal potion of what I call lunatic fringe objectivists. There's an LFO in another forum that insists all sonic differences in in wires or other audio components are just SPL differences and once eliminated all wires and components will sound the same!

I find that a clever approach at rigging the test because it forces any DBT listener to now face two more unknown sonic variables:

1) the addition of an equalizer of some sort.
2) other wires that need to be added to use the equalizer.

In an attempt to somehow discredit my offer, I had one of the LFOs respond to my offer to prove to objectivists that I can hear differences via manuel DBTs by saying O come now, Tom! The only person who has been demanding any consumers do DBTs around here is you! This same person later lied and stated I was demanding he come to the test!

The truth was that I specifically asked this person and the other person who believes all differences are due to SPL differences to come to my home because they kept posting that no one has ever proven to witnesses they can reliably detect differences in wires or other audio components. When I told them I had done just that they poo-pooed the idea.

To my way of thinking if:

1) You won't accept my word.
2) You won't accept my witnesses.

Then it MUST be proven to you directly no? So I posted this: I'm so 100% absolutely & postively sure that I can detect the differences in ICs & speaker wires in my system, that I'm willing to pay for the cost of your plane ticket ---{roundtrip from Michigan to Florida & back again }--- if I fail to do so! Mr R. if you're so postive all that BS you espouse is the truth and if you're so postive not one audiophile in the world, even one time, can demonstrate the ability detect the differences in ICs & speaker wires, to witnesses you'd be risking nothing financially taking this trip because you'd KNOW with 100% absolute & postive assurance that I'd fail the test and I'd have to pay for your plane ticket roundtrip!

So Mr R now that you have to put your $$$$$ where you mouth is are you willing to risk anything financially to see if I can prove your posts about wires is incorrect or not? The balls in your court Mr R.. You can continue to post your wild conjecture on wires or you can learn what the truth about wires really is!

I then essentially end that post with this: Oh yes please don't tell me to get witnesses in Florida and prove it to them because I've already done that and you won't accept that as truth! This is something you'll have to witness for yourself. Of course we all know you'll either ignore the bet outright or come up with yet one more of your myriad of excuses why you won't come to Florida. Why? Because you know what you're posting is nothing but BS!

Needless to say neither of them came and the myriad of excuses why they wouldn't began to fly!

I cannot speak for other subjectivists but I believe in science. Science is how all our audio components cane into being. What I'd like to see is a healthy meeting of the two opposing views, coming together with open minds to try and determine why some people can hear differences in wires or other audio components. Hopefully the day will come when I can meet some objectivists who have an open mind.

I have no problem with real objectivists and their being skeptical. In point of fact I'm a very skeptical subjectivist but, being truly objective and scientific is to approach things with an open mind. You test and observe with an open mind. It's not being objective or scientific to approach something, anything for example: {Why do subjectivists hear differences that aren't so far being measured?} believing you already know the reasons why the subjectivists are making the claims they do. Objectivists who are making snide comments about the subjectivist using "magic" wires, fooling themself, making claims of having super-hearing capabilities, or being a victim of expectation bias are already revealing their mind isn't open and they've determined the outcome of testing and observing even before the tests are complete.

Just remember humans hear, see, smell and feel in a "global" fashion! Yet when we measure objectively we do exactly the opposite! Perhaps this and of itself is the entire reason why subjectivists hear differences that aren't so far being measured! The problem is we'll never know until someone objectively looks at this without preconcieved notions of why it occurs.

Thetubeguy1954
 
#3,664
I have a feeling I will eventually take the trip and do some tests with you. I am not making an excuse though I am just a broke bastard 🙂 And I did take a 2 hour drive just today and my car wasn't running well at all. So it probably wont be soon.

I think it should be planned out a little better and maybe have some parameters in place for a couple of cables. I honestly didn't know people argued that cables which measure the same sound different before this thread. I always thought that one group just thought the differences are negligible in most cases and that another group thinks these differences are imperative.

So we should have some cables that measure the same - or as close as we can get them with LCR - but were made with different methods or materials or both.

I'd also like to take my little active speakers and stands with me to listen with my own system - yeah the room will be different but I'd still like to test an active system and different ICs.

Beyond that I think we should do something fun because it sounds like a lot of work 😎 I guess if we just make a point of getting our best reference recordings ready this could take up some time.
peace
Key
 
#3,665
thetubeguy1954 said:
all sonic differences in in wires or other audio components are just SPL differences and once eliminated all wires and components will sound the same!

I find that a clever approach at rigging the test because it forces any DBT listener to now face two more unknown sonic variables:

1) the addition of an equalizer of some sort.
2) other wires that need to be added to use the equalizer.
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It's well understood that if there is even a small level difference between DUT's then the louder one is more likely to be selected. For cables, unless there was some massive difference like 12ga vs 24ga on a low Z speaker where there would be a large level (and possibly FR change due to Z) it is probably not relevant and easily measured and offset. It would at worst require a precision attenuator, that could replace a VC, so no net additional components.

FR changes due to cable in a given system, accounting for source and load Z is not difficult to measure or define. None of this is in dispute. Simply measuring the devices within the context of your system before the test took place would also give some credence to the tests. For example, if one cable made a measurable change to the HF response, say 2dB at 20kHz, then picking between that and another that was flat to 100kHz would not be difficult, nor would it invalidate the engineering arguments for audibility. For all I know, even given the test methodology you have proposed with your own system, two different DUT's may actually have easily characterised differences.

I for one hate Prop Head, and would appreciate if you'd leave your old arguments and heavily tainted language there.
 
#3,667
Cables are so way uncool and so ancient, here is something that really might be useful:

In order to learn how to emit, receive and interpret sounds, the scientists are developing a method that uses a series of protocols. This first step is for the individual to know how to make and identify his or her own sounds (they are different for each person), and later to know how to use them to distinguish between objects according to their geometrical properties "as is done by ships' sonar".
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http://richarddawkins.net/article,4...Spanish-Foundation-for-Science-and-Technology

Makes much more sense to me then the round and round of cable qualities.
 
#3,668
What's interesting is that people find this interesting. For many years I've paid attention to sounds around me and am often cognizant of the acoustic shadowing, for example, of someone passing behind in a noisy environment. I'll recommend again a great way to grow dissatisfied with your system, divorce your attention for the content of live, unamplified speech (department head meetings are tailored to the purpose 🙂) and listen to the texture and structure of sibilance, especially female voices.
It was a source of amazement that in one contentious discussion here a poster (solid objectivist slant FWIW) claimed the ability to hear height in the real world was fiction!
 
#3,669
Hey Terry, lots of verbiage there. I don't know what you can or cannot hear, but I do know what I can hear, particularly in a system I am very familiar with, such as my own and my friend Rudi's. Why not expand your world view? Why not do some experiments for yourself, such as I suggested, and see whether you can hear a difference? It seems there are a fair number of people here that have proved it to their satisfaction. Why not join them?
 
#3,670
hihopes said:
Hey Terry, lots of verbiage there. I don't know what you can or cannot hear, but I do know what I can hear, particularly in a system I am very familiar with, such as my own and my friend Rudi's. Why not expand your world view? Why not do some experiments for yourself, such as I suggested, and see whether you can hear a difference? It seems there are a fair number of people here that have proved it to their satisfaction. Why not join them?
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Ha ha, hihopes, would you be at all surprised that you are not the first to say such a thing??!

I am always willing to expand my world view, always.

Please forgive me, but it you made 'concrete suggestions' in a particular post could you redirect me to it??

I have and do try many different things in and with my system..that is almost over now thank heavens, I am SOOOO looking forward to the day I make my last post on any audio forum and get out of the mindset that must ensue of talking about -hence concentrating on- systems and equipment...and music (only) here I come. Forget the little 'what about thises and what about that's' that may or may not get the better sound. No doubt it will take a while to change the mental view, then back to enjoying music as much as we all could at one stage, on a transistor radio, yet in as good a system as we have managed to assemble!!

But till then, I will get as much enjoyment and education as I can from audio forums..we do post on forums because it is enjoyable in some way?? And for me, one of the highly enjoyable and interesting aspects of it all is the human interaction/behaviour...and the reasons for them...

So please make those suggestions again for me, and I'll directly respond, for now I 'must have missed them'

Ha ha, side note 'human upset explanation'...I really do believe that a lot of the reasons things get heated is because questions do not get directly addressed when they are raised. Person A says something, B responds with points or queries, A never actually addresses them but makes new disrelated divergent points, B does not demand that he gets the questions answered but also makes new ever more diverging responses and away it goes, further and further apart and emotions rising.

A common pact made between all of honestly answering points defuses the situation, and you can see that when it DOES happen for that period of time the tenor of the conversation is quite calm and rational,,,and that has happened a few times in THIS thread even!!

So I always address any question directed at me, so please point me to your post thanks.

Just as a side note, I did waaaay back in this very thread detail a dbt that we did conduct, admittedly it was quite a while ago so you may have missed it, so I feel your 'slight' of Why not expand your world view? Why not do some experiments for yourself, such as I suggested, and see whether you can hear a difference? It seems there are a fair number of people here that have proved it to their satisfaction. Why not join them? is just a bit unjustified.

Additionally, you may have noticed a bit of friction between Andy and myself?? I have repeatedly suggested andy and I do exactly the thing you have urged, that we get together and actually test these things, so again it's a little unfair for you to suggest that I am unwilling. HE seems to be the one that keeps hitting insurmountable obstacles that prevent it from happening. I have offered to put him up for a week at my place to give him time to familiarise himself with MY system (as he 'cannot' do it on his or any of his friends that live close by) and we do the test here.

I am sure that realistically if there was a will there is a way.

Now, contrast that with what seems to be tubeguys experience! He seems to find that objectivists do not want to step up to the plate!! I cannot find a subjectivist willing to step up to the plate!!

Isn't human psychology fascinating???

The S*&^T would absolutely hit the fan at the mere suggestion (esp from me) of organising a test if I (again) suggested it on our local audio forum!

So everybody, let's go with what we may be able to get. Between us all let's try and work out the best test we can with Key and tubeguy, we can vicariously get something happening!

Tom (is it?), have you ever thought of trying to organise one of these tests by way of AVS? (20 000 forum would be the best bet).

I'm sure the chance of finding someone geographically closer would be good, and they would have the 'smarts' to be able to do it properly with you and your input.

I would love to be part of one over here in Aus. Instead if tawking about this ad infinitum why not learn??

Enjoyed the Lions tour, boy you guys scraped home in a few sticky situations, lets hope for an equally good tri nations.
 
#3,672
Finally, someone has published some data to show that the speaker and the amplifier can be affected by the cable characteristics.

It's not the cables we hear as different.

It's the way the amplifier reacts to the new loading and the way the speaker reacts to the new source.

I will not repeat my hypothesis for fear of being accused of breaking Forum rules.

I will repeat my other advice.

Place the amplifier right next to the speaker terminals and connect amplifier to speaker with the shortest possible cables/cords.

This virtually demands Monoblocks raised up on stands to the height of the driver terminals.
 
#3,678
I have a pair of Impulse H2 speakers. These have to have longish internal cables as the drivers are front mounted on the baffles and the x-over is rear mounted. This means that any removal of either requires a foot or more of excess cable. Easier to take out the x-over and mount in a seperate box and triple wire direct to the drivers.

This solution has often been advised for other speakers as a tweek.

The paper referred to above, co-authored by Phil Newell, is interesting. Two of his best known Studios were Townhouse in Shepherds Bush, London and the Manor in Oxfordshire, both executed when Phil was a Director of Richard Branson's original Virgin Music Company. Phil sold his holding and established a seaplane company plying the West Coast of Scotland. He qualified as both a Pilot and as a Master Mariner so that he could pilot the seaplanes himself! He is extremely talented!!

Townhouse studios had the main studio redesigned by Sam Toyashima back in the late 80s-early 90s. THe famous Olympic Studios - bought by Virgin - was also given this money no object rebuild but was seriously damaged acoustically by the Local Government fire/safety requirements which required the Toyashima use of wood to be replaced with structural steel at the control-room / studio interfaces. Olympic was until then possibly the second most famous UK studio after Abbey Road. When it was sold to ~Virgin I lived within a couple of hundred yards away, and knew most of the staff. I bought a lot of stuff including an original HK Citation 1 & 11, several pairs of Tannoy drivers (15" Golds, a pair of Silvers and the main control room monitors which had the very first pair of Reds inside.) Also got two C24 mikes. Unfortunatly this was too much to house in an apartment and ended up mostly with friends. Rebuilding the HKs was my first DIY experience and they were rather nice amps. I used the power amp for a few years at home.

I also had a Radford TT100 hybrid power amp from there and 'turned down' two full cases of Gold Lion KT88 tubes at £5 (then $7.00) per tube!!

They also put most of the tape library in Dumpsters!!!!! I salvaged quite a few 1/4" insurance masters - which I am prepared to 'share' as I no longer have a two track 15ips tape machine.
 
#3,679
Andre Visser said:
An interesting link that came up on another thread showing what happen if real speakers are used for cable measurements:

http://www.audiodesignline.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201807390
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Now that is an interesting read. Thankyou.

So, can we reach agreement that:
a) speaker cables can make an audible difference in a given system,
b) the difference depends on the system and the environment it operates in, and
c) these differences can be audible (or perhaps detectable by humans) but difficult (or unable) to be measured.

Perhaps we can burn some more bandwidth discussing interconnects? :bawling:

Cheers,

Alex
 
#3,680
Alex from Oz said:


So, can we reach agreement that:
a) speaker cables can make an audible difference in a given system,
b) the difference depends on the system and the environment it operates in, and
c) these differences can be audible (or perhaps detectable by humans) but difficult (or unable) to be measured.
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Yes
Yes
No

There's no profound revelation. Differences between speaker cables have been known for decades (look at the publications from Dick Greiner and Fred Davis, for example, going back 30 years).

The important point is, when a difference can be heard, it can be measured. When it can be measured, it is due to well-known engineering reasons. When it can be heard, it is due to very obvious and easily correctable engineering reasons (e.g., frequency response changes, amp instability).

Maybe there's some unmeasurable magic factor (dielectric, silver vs, copper...) that can be detected by sharp listeners, but after those same 30 years, not one person has ever demonstrated it. Not one. Ever. At some point, cable magic has to be put in the same bin as astrology, creationism, and homeopathy- pathological, to use Langmuir's term.
 
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