And yet,you create creativity,no matter what.Yes sir,because you are human,no matter what the machines say.Ask them to measure your powers.🙂
About a decade or more ago, I used to visit a "hi-fi" showroom (more like entry-level to mid-fi) in a furniture store. One of the salesmen (since retired) used to take us into a listening room and demonstrate different interconnect cables to us without telling us anything about them until we had passed some comments about what we had heard. We did this on quite a few occasions and found that we were able to come back weeks later and after listening to the same 3 or 4 sets of cables, identify with fair accuracy which were which without seeing them. These were not expensive cables, nor were they being played on expensive systems (NAD, Rotel, Marantz etc.). No doubt some of you will say this was not done scientifically enough, but it was a valuable learning experience for me and a step in training my listening faculty to hear subtle differences in reproduction.
Digital is digital, right? 0's and 1's? On or off? Then why do optical cables sound different to coaxial cables?
I think most here would agree that in general, vinyl and CD do not sound exactly alike. Can scientific measurement distinguish one from the other with 100% accuracy?
Digital is digital, right? 0's and 1's? On or off? Then why do optical cables sound different to coaxial cables?
I think most here would agree that in general, vinyl and CD do not sound exactly alike. Can scientific measurement distinguish one from the other with 100% accuracy?
At present the human processor is definitely, in the combination of all of its abilities, superior to any technology.
Although parts of the processing can be done faster and more precise.
Yes, I am human, and believe me, once you hit about 55 or sixty - you will notice HOW human you are, when systems start breaking down.
Although parts of the processing can be done faster and more precise.
Yes, I am human, and believe me, once you hit about 55 or sixty - you will notice HOW human you are, when systems start breaking down.
I believe you.I have already survived from a bad "thing"last summer,so,believe me too,I know very well🙂
Do they?
What is that supposed to mean? 50/50?
You bet. Anything from channel separation down to distortion up to noise up - any noise, rumple, hiss, snap crackle pop.
Ever used a denoising program for vinyl?
That's the charm of vinyl - it ages like we do, it is very imperfect and has character - which doesn't mean it is superior to digital.
audio-kraut said:
Great, not that it have anything to do with listening to music.
audio-kraut said:
I said it's hard to copy, not impossible. I don't know if anybody would put in the effort to create test equipment that measure the same way that we hear.
Andre Visser said:
I wonder what such test equipment will measure,if its creator is an audiophile😀
Hi audiokraut.
1) Yes, they do in all of the cases i have heard. Silver digital cables also sound different to copper, as do silver interconnects and silver speaker cables. If any of you skeptics out there still doubt that cables make a difference, try changing all of your cables to silver cables. Oh, and while you are at it, throw in some silver power cables too. You may not fancy the result - it may not be synergistic with your system - or it may knock your socks off - but it should be audible to all but the most insensitive "tin-ears" out there.
2) I would be lying if I were to give an exact percentage. After all, this was more than 10 years ago. We did not take notes. We did not think it necessary to do so, because it was accurate enough to be beyond coincidence, and it was repeatable.
3) I take your point here. I was thinking along the lines of the kind of "character" one hears with the different media, but i have to concede that the character is probably influenced by the factors you mentioned.
1) Yes, they do in all of the cases i have heard. Silver digital cables also sound different to copper, as do silver interconnects and silver speaker cables. If any of you skeptics out there still doubt that cables make a difference, try changing all of your cables to silver cables. Oh, and while you are at it, throw in some silver power cables too. You may not fancy the result - it may not be synergistic with your system - or it may knock your socks off - but it should be audible to all but the most insensitive "tin-ears" out there.
2) I would be lying if I were to give an exact percentage. After all, this was more than 10 years ago. We did not take notes. We did not think it necessary to do so, because it was accurate enough to be beyond coincidence, and it was repeatable.
3) I take your point here. I was thinking along the lines of the kind of "character" one hears with the different media, but i have to concede that the character is probably influenced by the factors you mentioned.
Changing all cables in a system at the same time,is indeed a good way to check for differences.
Panicos K said:
Since we can't trust our ears, I believe it will have to draw pictures of the soundfield to have any use. 😀
A good mike is far better.
Sigh. How many more times do I need to say, "Your ears are fine, it's your brain that you shouldn't trust," before it finally sinks in?
In short
If you dont know its there, you dont look for it, and dont see it
It may still be there though
If you dont know its there, you dont look for it, and dont see it
It may still be there though
SY said:
just trying to imagine how you drive a car ??
must be a very scary process for you.
I can just imagine it.. GPS says no curve in the road, eyes/brain says yes there is.. so you trust the GPS.
One of the things that a pilot must learn is to NOT trust what his ear-brain system is telling him, else a death spiral results. One's experience of recovering from "unusual attitudes" while wearing the hood is a good one.
The tricks our brain plays are evident to anyone who has had fun at a magic show or enjoyed optical illusions. Or stereo, for that matter- darn, that center image seems really real, but there's no sound source there!
The tricks our brain plays are evident to anyone who has had fun at a magic show or enjoyed optical illusions. Or stereo, for that matter- darn, that center image seems really real, but there's no sound source there!
SY said:
The first is because of the loss of all frames of reference, of course the brain has issues.
As for stereo, YES, stereo music reproduction DOES rely on the ear/brain interaction. Well done, sir ! 😎
thetubeguy1954 said:
Ha! It's good to see my senses have not failed me just yet! I was pretty certain you were one of the 'willing ones'.
And you are totally within your rights to make those 'demands' of the test protocol, and I would not have a problem with them being in play.
The only things I would 'demand' on top of that is that there be no cues whatsoever that give away the identity. I nearly fell into the trap of demanding level matched!! Apart from the impracticality of that for all we know the level difference produced (eg R value different) could be the sole reason for any perceived differences.
And it makes complete and solid sense, especially when trying to determine small differences, that the test be done in any way that can maximise the chances of it being successful.
I cannot see it in the quote I'm replying to right now, but for some reason I have the idea you are in Florida??
IF you are, and FLA is an abbreviation for Florida....then it would be fantastic if AJ took you up on your (all too rare need I add????) willingness to advance this filed of knowledge by investigating this stuff.
hihopes said:
I think it would be a trivial matter for a first year technician to differentiate between a vinyl recording and a cd recording, using instruments only. If they couldn't they'd be kicked out of the course, kinda the education equivalent of the darwin awards??
Your statement could be entirely correct (tho equally it would not surprise me that if this were done blinded there'd be a great deal of shock at how very little REAL difference there actually was no matter how great your certainty otherwise). ALL of that is predicted scientifically.
Science, or objectivists do not say there cannot be differences!! Easily understood and explained. But it would almost take an heroic effort to get cables etc to sound reliably different in a dbt, let alone 'massively' or 'easy to a tin ear'.
Anecdotal non-rigorous biased demos such as that done in the showroom must go a LONG way for the perpetuation of cable beliefs, and must in part give a foundation for the sincerity of your beliefs about it (belief not being derogatory there).
Imagine...would your feelings in this matter be different if the FIRST exposure you had was a properly done procedure designed to test the extent of audible differences??
All too often our thoughts and conclusions (which most never seem to challenge later in life..just a general observation not limited to discussions like this) are 99% determined by our FIRST exposure to it! Then we file it away, act upon it as if it will be totally applicable in all situations at all times, never going back to re-examine it yet there it is, influencing us unseen from the depths of the memory...
Sounds a bit like, hmm, dunno, ahh! that's it. Sounds a bit like bias yeah?
Terryj I'm in complete agreement wiith your additional demands on the DBT. In fact I mentioned avoiding the "Clever Hans" incident specifically because it provided cues that did give away the identity.
As far as AJinFLA ever coming to my home that will never happen! When I first met AJ it was in another forum that the moderators usually don't make people be civil, unless it gets real bad. As AJ was a fellow Floridain I actually invited AJ over for a listen and he responded by attacking my audio system. AJ said: ---{this next part is a paraphrase of my best recollection of his response to my invitation: }--- "Why would I waste my time to come over to your house to listen to a highly distorted tone control powering computer speakers?"
At that time AJ said that, I was using a 40W/ch, Italian, integrated SET --the Mastersound Reference 845 and the "computer speakers he was refering to were the highly regarded Aliante Pininfarina One speakers of Italy. You can read a review of those speakers here: http://tinyurl.com/Aliante-Review These days my system is as shown in the photo. FYI AJ dislikes these speaker as well.
Later AJ even went so far as to make a sexual innuendo about my wife and what she could do with Nelson Pass' El-Pipo subwoofer I was considering building. So what was a possible time for both of us to learn something by viewing things through the eyes of a person with the opposite POV was killed because of AJ's uncivility and need to berate & disparage virtually everything ---{even when he hasn't heard the component in question}--- when it doesn't line up with what he believes a speaker, amp, CDP etc. should be.
That man will never step foot in my home. That said, "if" anyone here is going to be in the Orlando, FLA area, perhaps for a vacation at Disney with the family? I'd love to have them over for a listen and extend to them an invitation. Just please email me at thetubeguy1954(at)yahoo(dot)com a good bit before you'll want to visit and we'll make arrangements for a nice listening session.
Thetubeguy1954
Attachments
sorry to hear all that, but understood. thanks.
As I say, you're one of the good nuts ha ha
hope something happens on this specific question, but apart from that hope that people who can, take you up.
hmm, guess my thought that FLA stands for florida was correct, and that my memory about you being there was also correct,
alzheimers begone for another day.
Look, I also agree that an opportunity was missed. rather than just tawk on a forum....me? I actually want to know if you follow.
Andy, surely we can work something out??? and have fun doing so I might add.
EDIT...there it is, at the bottom of your posts. duhh. it is not there when you are typing a reply, so it must have subliminally sunk in somewhere
As I say, you're one of the good nuts ha ha
hope something happens on this specific question, but apart from that hope that people who can, take you up.
hmm, guess my thought that FLA stands for florida was correct, and that my memory about you being there was also correct,
alzheimers begone for another day.
Look, I also agree that an opportunity was missed. rather than just tawk on a forum....me? I actually want to know if you follow.
Andy, surely we can work something out??? and have fun doing so I might add.
EDIT...there it is, at the bottom of your posts. duhh. it is not there when you are typing a reply, so it must have subliminally sunk in somewhere
thetubeguy1954 said:
Thank you for providing this exceedingly amusing background. When i was young, naive and too polite i tried to persuade "objectivist" - type acquaintances to take part in listening tests. They always had an excuse to avoid one. That was long before the internet and before i knew what a rabid objectivist meant.
Andy G said:
just trying to imagine how you drive a car ??
must be a very scary process for you.
I can just imagine it.. GPS says no curve in the road, eyes/brain says yes there is.. so you trust the GPS.
lol, that was funny.....pointless but funny.
I wonder how well you would fly a plane if you trust your eyes/brain more then instruments 😱
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