SY said:
Any suggestion on which silver and which copper cable, with the same R, C and L, I can buy to do the test?
André
dukeoyork said:
I strongly suspect that the amps hold back the speaker's potential. (and 60w seems a bit overkill for a tweeter XOed at 10kHz).
dave
André
Probably the easiest is to construct identical interconnects from same gauge copper and silver. At least a lot cheaper than speaker cables. I have done this at the time using cat5 and some pretty generic "five nines" silver.
Probably the easiest is to construct identical interconnects from same gauge copper and silver. At least a lot cheaper than speaker cables. I have done this at the time using cat5 and some pretty generic "five nines" silver.
planet10 said:
why? do you think they compromise the cabinet, or maybe that they're not good amps?
well, if i ever see some passive ones for cheap, i'll pick them up and see if they can do 'more', 'cause ive grown to really love them, in spite of the counter intuitive 60 X 60 power distribution. the tweeter doesn't SOUND too loud, but i agree that it SEEMS overkill.
i'd guess the designer had some kind of rationale behind the choice. if they really go up to 40khz, then a good deal of that tweeter power is being used for frequencies only dogs can hear, i'd also guess.
dukeoyork said:
the latter. Althou no experience with these drivers, i have a lot of experience with other Fostex and they have sufficient resolution (especially when i'm done with them) to let you here every wart in the amp.
It was probably cheaper to build 2 amps the same. Ever pop the "top" off the amp and see what's inside?
dave
nope. the most DIYing i've done with them is to move them into different rooms and positions and flip the 3-way boost/cut to compensate for the room's character.
they don't seem to be wanting for headroom at the levels i like to listen (ie. as quiet as possible without losing the feeling).
i do think if i was a crank it up type of mixing guy, i would find them a little lite, but i feel the ears are fooled by loud volumes. you THINK it sounds good, because you can hear everything at high volumes, but turn it down and you quickly hear what's getting buried (if you can still hear, that is). i only listen loud in short bursts, and they are easily loud enough for my purpose. if i want it really loud, i can just pump it through mackie sm450's. they sound pretty nice even though they're PA speakers.
it's a nice thought that them bananas could be even better than they are, though. if the woofer can take it, it would probably benefit from a few more watts.
oh, yeah, and to stay on topic,....i use XLR connectors for the inputs, with belden cable and neutrik connectors. it doesn't sound significantly better than using the 1/4 inch jacks.
they don't seem to be wanting for headroom at the levels i like to listen (ie. as quiet as possible without losing the feeling).
i do think if i was a crank it up type of mixing guy, i would find them a little lite, but i feel the ears are fooled by loud volumes. you THINK it sounds good, because you can hear everything at high volumes, but turn it down and you quickly hear what's getting buried (if you can still hear, that is). i only listen loud in short bursts, and they are easily loud enough for my purpose. if i want it really loud, i can just pump it through mackie sm450's. they sound pretty nice even though they're PA speakers.
it's a nice thought that them bananas could be even better than they are, though. if the woofer can take it, it would probably benefit from a few more watts.
oh, yeah, and to stay on topic,....i use XLR connectors for the inputs, with belden cable and neutrik connectors. it doesn't sound significantly better than using the 1/4 inch jacks.
analog_sa said:
What I'm getting at is that I don't think it is easy to get two different cables with the same L, C, and R measurements to begin with.
Earlier on this thread I've described a blind test I've done a few years ago with four different interconnects. I was able to identify each cable by name after a few seconds of listening.
André
Johnloudb said:
Hello John!
Can I was curious if you provide any citations that support your statement: Sounds also sound different to our ears at different times also. Changes in your sound environment and emotional state can affect how a recording or your system sounds to you?
I'm asking for the citations because I agree with that 100% but I've been mocked as being a looney-subjectivist for stating this very same thing on a different audio forum. I'd love to have some "proof" that I'm not alone in this belief!
Thetubeguy1954
Andre Visser said:
Hello André!
My friend you are wasting your time. I've also told people in various audio forums I can identify different cables and offered to provide proof if anyone wished to visit my home so I could do so in person. Now understand I wasn't demanding anyone had to come, but rather I offered to do so should anyone be happening to visit Orlando, Fla and had some spare time.
People who believe wires sound different don't require proof. Those that don't believe wires sound different won't accept any test results as valid if they don't support their POV. When tests are done and cables are identified they claim the tests or wires are faulty! However when tests are done and cables aren't identified they claim those tests are proof their postion is the correct one.
Only those very few people who truly understand DBTs & statistics will admit any test that doesn't provide positive results that wires are identifiable isn't also a test that provides positive results that wires aren't identifiable. Those who are knowledgable & honest will admit all those tests proved was those people, in that place, with that equipment, at that time, couldn't identify the wires being tested.
I don't understand why this argument/debate continues on so. Subjectivists aren't converting Objectivists and Objectivists aren't converting Subjectivists to their belief system. In the at least 30 years + this argument/debate has raged on neither side has ever provided sufficient proof to the other side that their belief is the correct one.
There either are reasons why wires sound different ---{besides RLC differences}--- or there aren't! Once either side can prove their POV is the correct one the other side's POV would automatically be the incorrect one by default. As this argument/debate continues on it's obvious neither side has done so. The part I find funny is I don't believe it's possible for either side to provide sufficient enough proof their POV or belief system is correct, that the other side would be willing to accept the proof they provided!
Instead I believe they'd continue to do what they've both been doing for decades now i.e., look for every possible excuse or reason why not to accept the proof in order to keep this specific argument/debate raging on. Personally from what I've seen & read in magazines and in audio forums about this topic, I've come to believe most people enjoy the arguing & wanting to be correct more than anything else...
Thetubeguy1954
Andre Visser said:
I don't know if it can be done building two cables with the same materials. The first step would be to determine your tolerance limit for differential.
I built interconnects at one time encasing a parallel pair of wires in the heat-sealing laminate used to protect paper documents, available from any office supply store. Consistent spacing is a simple matter of wrapping the raw wire around four screws driven into a piece of wood, slipping the plastic laminate beneath and over top and then ironing. The advantage of this material over commonly used packing tape - besides no sticky electrolytes - is it's almost impossible to heat it taut completely around the conductor. Instead it's held in place top and bottom, leaving the rest of the wire surrounded by air. Easy to achieve consistent physical construction, substantially air dielectric, cheap as chips; it might be an ideal construction for comparing, say, 28 gauge silver vs. copper.
The electrons travel in a wire at the center and at the circumference.
The material used to encase the wire is very important and also the finish of the wire itself.
The material used to encase the wire is very important and also the finish of the wire itself.
Andre Visser said:
Seems pretty easy to meet SY's relaxed requirement for 0.1db variation in response within the audio band. In fact you only need generally similar geometry and dielectrics especially if the preamp has low output impedance.
dzzmiller said:
Not skeptical about an analysis based on room acoustics from a vendor of room acoustic treatments? 😉 It' actually a pretty simplistic (OK, flat out dumb) one as well, otherwise we'ld all hearing massive differences in our systems every time we reached for a drink. It usually takes me four or five. Memory loss settles in after eight or nine.
thetubeguy1954 said:
Your point about statistics is true but a double edged sword. You might be able to hear differences - but you might be the only person on earth to do so. As more successes and failures are documented using the same precise methods - generalizations about the population as a whole can be made.
All of those tests need to be true double blind tests without any possibility of unintentional communication of information. Let's never forget clever Hans the counting horse... he couldn't count - but his owner could and didn't realize he was accidentally providing a subtle cue to his horse.
The real question I have is: If so many people have trouble then is it fair to say that this is not the place that most people should spend their money? The fact that the profit margin in this area makes me skeptical of all system advice that includes cables in the recommendation.
Andre Visser said:
As long as you don't do anything odd to destabilize your no-doubt "audiophile grade" source or cause a frequency response error of more than 0.1dB, it's your choice. Oh yeah, and don't use any of that oddball microphonic cable that I have in my closet.
The main thing is to have real controls, not the play-time stuff that audiophiles love so well. As I've done with lots of other people who claim similar things to you, I'll be happy to help you structure the test. So far, no one has bothered to actually do it.
First, skin effect is irrelevant at AF in a stranded cable of <0.8mm or so strand diameter.Gabdx1 said:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/skin-effect-relevance-in-speaker-cables/
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/interview-with-dr-howard-johnson-about-skin-effect/
The electrons don't "travel" unless it's DC. Everything else in your post is gibberish. It might help to read up a bit on E&M.
Member
Joined 2002
wow for a second there i thought i was gone for a whyle, then i come back to snoop around and weird, the same threads are still here getting longer and longer with the same arguments.
Doesn't this get boring ? or at least OLD!!!
Buy and use what you like and leave it at that, why does everything have to be a rant!
Doesn't this get boring ? or at least OLD!!!
Buy and use what you like and leave it at that, why does everything have to be a rant!
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