jleaman said:
You are kidding, right?
There's not much more fun than a cable thread (or oil, spark plugs, etc.)
SY said:
What, in fact, would the test be? Simple silver cable vs. copper. Fancy $$$ cord vs. zip cord? Something else?
Since we are "diyAudio" why don't we DIY or own test?
Or would anyone ever agree on test conditions?
dzzmiller said:
Beware glib explain-it-all pages - even with frequency response graphs!
I hooked up a Toslink optical cable, and a copper cable in parallel between my Squeezebox and TVC. I could switch instantaneously between the 2 and the volume levels were identical. I was looking to assess the audible effects of any jitter, and assumed that - simply because of the word jitter, the optical cable might sound edgy and harsh.
To my surprise, consistently, the optical cable sounded very slightly lacking in detail, and muffled conpared to the copper. My head did not move (fails Ethan's theory), and it was consistent (fails Ethan's theory). Though he makes many valid points.
Reading more about jitter, I realised that it would be expected to muffle the sound.
One more subjectivist irritant - the repeated assertion that we are duped by expectation-bias based on the cost and appearance of our cables. We expect a $5000 1" thick hi-tech exotic materials cable to out-perform a $4 one, so it does.
Grrr. Nothing I love better than high-performing budget equipment. My Charlize amp (£60) outperforms my valve amp (£600) in every department so stayed. My enamelled magnet wire speaker cable did not outperform my JPS (despite the raw wires looking disturbingly alike ... Allumiloy? If you say so Joe, but they do sound better) so the magnet-wire went but otherwise it would have stayed.
We Scots have negative expectation-bias where cost is concerned! A blind Scotsman would be your ideal wire tester!
And, guys, why even bother looking at RLC? The objectivists will tell you that within the typical variation in these parameters between adequately constructed cables there can not possibly be any resulting differences in sound that would actually be audible.
Daily rant over. Love these wire threads!
In 30 years of cable-marketing, there still hasn't been a single controlled test showing those differences. Not one. Nope. All it takes is one controlled test with a significant result and the debate is over.
I hear the sound of crickets chirping...
Lol they flow or whatever, only on small distances....
For an electron size, only traveling on a 0.0005cm/second distance is a lot.
Call it a vibration or whatever. I did physics at university and I know how it works. It still does this flow/vibration thing at the center and at surface of the wire.
Also increasing the wire size and conductivity decrease the latency of the signal response to all these changes of I, V, Frequency.
So yes in a good audio wire you will hear more details period.
If you can't hear the difference it's too bad, we are all different genetically, some have crap hearing, and some have exceptional hearing.
For an electron size, only traveling on a 0.0005cm/second distance is a lot.
Call it a vibration or whatever. I did physics at university and I know how it works. It still does this flow/vibration thing at the center and at surface of the wire.
Also increasing the wire size and conductivity decrease the latency of the signal response to all these changes of I, V, Frequency.
So yes in a good audio wire you will hear more details period.
If you can't hear the difference it's too bad, we are all different genetically, some have crap hearing, and some have exceptional hearing.
SY said:
As posted before, that´s not true, because at least the authors think they have found something:
Audio analysis VI: testing audio cables
Source Computer Music Journal archive
Volume 12 , Issue 1 (Spring 1988) table of contents
Pages: 58 - 64
Year of Publication: 1988
ISSN:0148-9267
Authors Philip Greenspun
Leigh Klotz
A second example would be a controlled listening test as a part of a ´magister thesis´done in germany during the High End fair in 2001:
Olaf Sturm
"Klangverbessernde Kabelverbindungen in der High-Fidelity- Eine experimentelle Hörstudie mit Musikbeispielen über verschiedene NF-Leitungen"
(Rough Translation would be: Sound enhancing Interlinks in High Fidelity- an experimental listening study with music samples transferred by different NF-interlinks)
Schriftliche Hausarbeit im Rahmen der Magisterprüfung an der Philosophischen Fakultät der Universität zu Köln,
Musikwissenschaftliches Institut.
It was a dbt with over 100 particpants.
And at least, but maybe without any published information, Cardas claimed that Bernie Grundmann choosed his cables for the new studio with a blind test done on different mix samples send out to sound engineers for evaluation.
SY said:
SY, you say "All it takes is one controlled test with a significant result and the debate is over."
If that's the case, please tell how to do a blind test that will be acceptable to all and I will do it.
André
Well you obviously haven't retained that knowledge. I have given two links explaining that it makes no difference, but you repeatedly fail to respond to those.Gabdx1 said:
The reason SY hears the crickets chirping, is that no one here will set up a test. It's much more fun to just talk about it.
Back a couple of years there was great talk of the James Randi million dollar cable challenge. Talk, talk, talk - blah, blah blah. That's all. But it was fun.
So I came up with what I considered a good test and submitted it to the Randi Institute. It was rejected - unjustly I feel, but it's their game. As far as I know, no one else in the discussion submitted.
Does the diyAudio community really want a good cable test? Then all we have to do is set one up. There will be 100s of ideas and criticisms before the test is ever run, but that's not a bad thing. Should make for a better test.
Back a couple of years there was great talk of the James Randi million dollar cable challenge. Talk, talk, talk - blah, blah blah. That's all. But it was fun.
So I came up with what I considered a good test and submitted it to the Randi Institute. It was rejected - unjustly I feel, but it's their game. As far as I know, no one else in the discussion submitted.
Does the diyAudio community really want a good cable test? Then all we have to do is set one up. There will be 100s of ideas and criticisms before the test is ever run, but that's not a bad thing. Should make for a better test.
panomaniac said:
the james randi/JREF forum is just thought police central headquarters.
nothing to see, here, move along.
panomaniac said:
hey, something new and interesting in a cable thread!
Well, I for one am curious, tell us your proposal and the reasons for rejection. Can you see their points or not?, would any of them be incorporated in any future test you might do?
Won't happen I fear. I offered to andy g way back on page 108 or something to drive to his place for a test. Silence since.
Back over here I doubt I could get another test off the ground, esp one limited to just cables. That may not be true, but I really doubt I could get the same guys to participate, they got too much of a fright last time.
terry j said:
As I said at the time.. driving all that way for a random cable swap with the slight off-chance we might hear something, that's not very logical, and pretty much a waste of time. It would tell us nothing, just as these random tests at get-togethers have always done.
If I ever swap something and think I notice a big enough difference to be identified under a basic dbt (ie a massive difference) then you are more than welcome., and will definitely receive an invite.
Also you are more than welcome if you just want to come and listen to some music and have a bbq and some beer ;-))
The place to start looking at this is when someone reports they have heard an identifiable difference...... then you try to determine IF and WHY... on the system that it occurred.
Andy G said:
As long as we both agree on protocol, why not have a beer as well??
The point is that instead of all of us just talkin and talkin, why do we not get together and rationally see if we can do something and TEST what we easily say on a keyboard?
And thankfully, face to face is always the way to go, we find common ground in audio.
So we'll do it eh? Lets between us all here work out an accpetable method, and at least you and I will do it over here, hopefully others will do it elsewhere and we can post results.
excellent stuff andy, see you then.
I repeat...... wait until one of the locals is sure they have heard a major difference on their system when changing speaker wires or interconnects..... then descend on him 
Random wire changing investigations, like you seem to be suggesting, are pointless.
I suppose if you really think its worth the time.. but the results, unless we get lucky, are pretty much pre-destined to be "null".
It would have to be on one of my secondary systems because it takes 10-15 minutes to change speaker wires on my main system.. we would be here for weeks, and I don't think either of us would live through that 😀 😀
Random wire changing investigations, like you seem to be suggesting, are pointless.
I suppose if you really think its worth the time.. but the results, unless we get lucky, are pretty much pre-destined to be "null".
It would have to be on one of my secondary systems because it takes 10-15 minutes to change speaker wires on my main system.. we would be here for weeks, and I don't think either of us would live through that 😀 😀
Andy G said:I repeat...... wait until one of the locals is sure they have heard a major difference on their system when changing speaker wires or interconnects..... then descend on him
bit confused...I do recall you mentioning a friend once who could pick cables in his system (was you yeah?), but I was under the impression that you personally believe cables make a worthwhile difference. If that is true, then am I wrong in the assumption that you have in your main system cables that you feel 'make a worthwhile difference'?
Then all I would do is bring along some house wiring.
Also a switch box, and voila away we go.
And then a few beers, either me because there was a difference..or you because there wasn't!!😀 😀
Random wire changing investigations, like you seem to be suggesting, are pointless.
see above, was not really thinking of anything random. Which is why I am happy to compare on YOUR system in YOUR room with YOUR cables. (a common, and not too untrue 'fault' with most tests, unfamiliar systems)
once set up with the box, then away we go.
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