I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

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#3,062
Olaf Sturm "Klangverbessernde Kabelverbindungen in der High-Fidelity- Eine experimentelle Hörstudie mit Musikbeispielen über verschiedene NF-Leitungen"
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Hey jacob - you know very well that this "test" was taken apart piece by piece in the hififorum de. - I remember it well....it is very controversial as to its validity.
I would not cite this one as a paragon of a well conducted test.
 
#3,065
This test was unfortunately published in German only, and the discussion was fiercest at the hififorum de. It was over three years ago, after the paper finally - despite some initial reluctance by the author - had been made accessibly, and I unfortunately cannot recall details anymore - maybe jacob remembers things more clearly.

There was for instance a preliminary test that indicated non audibility of differences, and the later more in depth test was flawed by using two different cd players, same model however. The analysis of the results (the cd player was also part of the test eventually) indicated that the differences in cables could be attributable more to the differences in the cd players than in cables.

As I said, rather foggy my memory here, but I remember that the test results were not clear cut due to a methodology that was far from flawless.
I also seem to remember that the statistical analysis was heavily critiqued.
 
#3,067
SY said:
I'd also be curious about what you proposed. Designing controlled tests is not a trivial matter.
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No, it isn't. And it wasn't even rejected on those grounds.

It was posted back in a cable thread in the "everything else" section. I'll see if I can scare it up.

I also promised SY I'd find the letter that JREF sent back rejecting my test. As I have moved house twice since then, it has not yet come to hand!

But I think I have it, somewhere....
 
#3,068
terry j said:


bit confused...I do recall you mentioning a friend once who could pick cables in his system (was you yeah?), but I was under the impression that you personally believe cables make a worthwhile difference. If that is true, then am I wrong in the assumption that you have in your main system cables that you feel 'make a worthwhile difference'?

Then all I would do is bring along some house wiring.

Also a switch box, and voila away we go.

And then a few beers, either me because there was a difference..or you because there wasn't!!😀 😀



see above, was not really thinking of anything random. Which is why I am happy to compare on YOUR system in YOUR room with YOUR cables. (a common, and not too untrue 'fault' with most tests, unfamiliar systems)





once set up with the box, then away we go.
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1. yes, but that case was several years ago. Before that, I believed as you do. There is no doubt in my mind that he could genuinely pick between 3 different cables, without knowing which one was actually in the system. By the end of 2 weeks, I sort of could, maybe, perhaps,on the right peice of music.
They were all banana plugged at both ends, so could be changed quickly. Iirc, cables were (a) around 14g of stranded copper, (b) approx same size but silver, and (c) house solid core electrical.

2. I now believe they "CAN" make a difference in some circumstances, but certainly not in all circumstances, and that a careful listener can, given time, learn to recognise these differences.

3. You are not SERIOUSLY suggesting putting a switch box in. :cannotbe: 😱
I suppose you would then suggest we use dbt to show that the switchbox didn't make a difference.. .. 🙄
You know how much notice would I be take of that.. :dodgy: 😀

4. when I changed from silver to braided cat5e, I was reasonably sure there was a difference, but the LRC would also have been quite different. and I am sure not spending 15mins grovelling behind cabinets each time we want to change cables backwards and forwards.
 
#3,069
Andy G said:



3. You are not SERIOUSLY suggesting putting a switch box in. :cannotbe: 😱


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deadly serious.

even Mr cables guru made not a mention of it in the matrix test.

I'm afraid that if cable believers feel a quality switch box is enough to skew the results.........then makes me wonder what all the fuss is about, and why the expense and effort?

of course, I do acknowledge that these switch boxes are magic, they somehow degrade the expensive signal and enhance the poor signal.

talk about value for money, just put a switch box on your cheap cables and bingo!

saved yourself a handful and get equally good sound

what's not to like?
 
#3,071
Andy G said:



then please don't expect me to take any of your other suggestion seriously, cos it ain't gunna happen. :dead:
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feel free to give a full scientific explanation, maybe the inductance is too high?, the capacitance, what?

alternatively, please give us the experiences you have had that have proved to you that a switch box will degrade the sound and make a test with them worthless.

or did you read other cable apologists similar reasoning?

it also begs the question, just HOW do preamps etc switch to different inputs and outputs?

have we moved on from switches to do it?
 
#3,073
terry j said:



alternatively, please give us the experiences you have had that have proved to you that a switch box will degrade the sound and make a test with them worthless.


it also begs the question, just HOW do preamps etc switch to different inputs and outputs?
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I have had the experience with a tube preamp
With toggle switch between 2 channels removed so that only one source was connected sound improved clearly noticeable
Though could it be microphonic interference issues related to the tubes

But I suppose there is a good reason why LCAudio began to switch both signal and ground on even his early preamps
But as I said to friend who began to worry about his preamp with switches, its not like its unbareable to listen to a preamp with switches 😀

I have also had moments where I could hear a difference whether other signal souces than the active was on or off, and the same with computers, lights etc...but I dont do that no more :smash: and I do have better power amps now 🙂
 
#3,074
Simple enough on the face of it. Ignore the dead weight of thousands of debates and just look at the basics. What are the cable claims are under test? Generally that a cable's performance between two RCA jacks hinges on a critical balance of electrical parameters, mechanical construction, metallurgy, shielding, geometry and <enter your slew of other claims here>. Ignore whether these claims are true or probable, adding a pile of different metals, geometries, electrical parameters in the form of a switch box directly in line with the DUT disrupts precisely the parameters under test. It's like tasting wines in used Coke cans because the latter can't possibly have an effect (with apologies to SY.)
Ways around it can be found but to me the standard big box-o-relays and mass of spaghetti hookup wire is at best cynical.
 
#3,075
I have to wonder why you both keep pushing your mediocre methods that almost certainly guarantee a null result. ????

Brett, silly comment as usual ! DOH !!

Until you guys can get your act together and get away from the current, very mediocre testing procedures you seem to be stuck with at the moment, I'm really not likely to be interested.

Maybe get back to me in a couple of years when you can come up with some updated methods...... instead of the usual old c..p !!!
 
#3,079
sorry for the late reply, have been busily installing switches in my speaker cables/

MAN!!! what clarity, what openness, I dare anyone to tell it apart from $10,000 speaker cables now!!

And being tri amped, I saved a bundle let me assure you.




Andy G said:

certainly moreso than using ideas that were dumped, like, 10 years ago..
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that's it??? that is the scientific refutation? 'Ideas that were dumped like ten years ago'. Is that REALLY it???

geez, pretty low standards if you ask me.

Ok, I'll call your bluff. Who dumped it, why did they dump it and citations please.

(unless the only ones that dumped it were those cable believers that failed, and blamed the switch box for the sudden disappearance of these amazing, unmistakeable and ground breaking audio results)

specifics please.

Originally posted by Andy G switch boxes for use in dbt testing ??? ! roflmao !!! :cannotbe: :whazzat: :dead:

sorry, but I just can't believe these guys were being serious.. it MUST have been a joke. !!! or trolling.........or something !
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till you can provide some sort of scientific proof...wait!! this is a cable thread.

silly me, here I am asking for some sort of scientific evidence.

what an idiot.

Ways around it can be found but to me the standard big box-o-relays and mass of spaghetti hookup wire is at best cynical

see, talk about exagerating to obfuscate and run away. can you explain to me how it is that we end up with a big box of relays and a mass of spaghetti?

hmm, ONE relay, two inputs one output.

big box of relays and a mass of spaghetti, give me a break

c'mon guys, I was wrong about it being page 108, it was page 102 when I put out the challenge to put up or shut up.

Andy, I gave you FULL authority to design the protocol, as I did on SNA.

what did brave sir robin do in the movie??

ahh, that's it...'run away, run away'.

Andy, seeing as how you are the font of all things scientific, again YOU design the test, and I will do the travelling.
 
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