fredex said:
Thank you fredex, that is the whole point. How can we measure what the "brilliant" brain hear, and surely this will differ from person to person.
@ fredex,
We talked earlier about microphone response and postprocessing. The graphs shown at ethanwiner.com display the results from a specific way of measurement.
Our ear/brain combination does interpret soundfields in a different way, the first incoming wavefront presents the first stimulus and related reflections are treated as such and in a different way as the first one.
Of course, you´re right that to know about a fact does help to keep track during changes, as we are used to deal with all of our senses at the same moment.
But jneutron is trying to enlighten about the small differences needed to get a different localization for an acoustical point source in reality.
And this source would face exactly the same reflections, the same movement of the listener and so on.
As posted before, the case of the impact of listener movement on localization issues has been studied before, the current state is that small movements of the listener improve the localization ability.
There is a lot of literature/papers available in this field and i think you´d be amazed to find out about all the things that are still not really known about our hearing ability.
And otoh it is amazing too to read about what already has been studied in this field. 🙂
BTW, as an amazing example of the ear/brain capabilities, did you ever see the blind Dan Kish driving on a bike only guided by ´echoloting´ through click sounds he´s producing?
We talked earlier about microphone response and postprocessing. The graphs shown at ethanwiner.com display the results from a specific way of measurement.
Our ear/brain combination does interpret soundfields in a different way, the first incoming wavefront presents the first stimulus and related reflections are treated as such and in a different way as the first one.
Of course, you´re right that to know about a fact does help to keep track during changes, as we are used to deal with all of our senses at the same moment.
But jneutron is trying to enlighten about the small differences needed to get a different localization for an acoustical point source in reality.
And this source would face exactly the same reflections, the same movement of the listener and so on.
As posted before, the case of the impact of listener movement on localization issues has been studied before, the current state is that small movements of the listener improve the localization ability.
There is a lot of literature/papers available in this field and i think you´d be amazed to find out about all the things that are still not really known about our hearing ability.
And otoh it is amazing too to read about what already has been studied in this field. 🙂
BTW, as an amazing example of the ear/brain capabilities, did you ever see the blind Dan Kish driving on a bike only guided by ´echoloting´ through click sounds he´s producing?
Andy Graddon said:
ATM I feel the effects of cables are overrated, and pale into insignificance compared to other factors. result? that means I'm currently unwilling to spend money on stuff like cables and interconnects to improve my sound.
Having said that, I must admit I have only come to that conclusion vicariously, and my 'makeup' means that I would tend to trust ''''published''' results that show no difference, and would tend to distrust anecdotal reports of differences, especially of the audio mag variety that says 'OMG a veil was lifted' heh heh (and yes, the published was in inverted commas because I realise that they may be called anecdotal by the 'other side')
Andy, I picked your post for a coupla reasons....I like your website and from what I've seen you have a bit of speaker design experience under your Belt (the non Peter king ha ha), so you obviously have a respect for and knowledge of the use of science and engineering in audio.
That part I can empathise with, the other side I have no personal reality on, that cables (yes, yes, I mean properly engineered ones) can make an audio difference (such difference being currently outside normal measurements...hope I haven't misrepresented you).
Your position on the reliability of previous DBT has been made well known. but from the steatement above I seem to get that you are not against DBTs per se, rather against not very well conducted ones. (hope I got it right)
hey man, I'd love to pop up for a visit, (maybe Brett would come along for the experience??).....whaddya reckon, do you think that we could cobble together a reasonably robust test that could get at least some insights into this whole question??
surely between all of the participants of this thread we can work out a good methodolgy and test protocol, to the best of our collective ability foresee and overcome most (?) of the 'problems' of previous tests....
My personal reason?? apart from meeting you and hearing some of the fruits of your many labours, as i said ATM I only really have an intellectual position on this (if I'm brutally honest) as I have not done any serious testing of the question. so fun from that angle. It may provide some answers somewhere (if others in this thread can trust us to be honest in our reporting that is)
heck, maybe we can all work out and agree on a protocol, and perhaps simultaneously in a few different countries we can all do the 'agreed upon test' on the same weekend and all report back here!! 😀 😀
Crikey, that has surely got to beat yet another 70 odd pages of tawking hasn't it?? (as entertaining as it mat have been)
I mean, are we just gonna tawk for ever or are we as a group going to try and actually contribute meaningfully to the body of audio knowledge?
(maybe the usefullness of thread like these lay in it's ability to let us all beat our chests and thump them, without any resolution occurring....it appeals to our long lost and society supressed primal instincts.. we can be aggressive and not be locked up by the cops heh heh)
Andy Graddon said:
Andre Visser said:
Andy you are a true subjectivist. People put measurements above what their ears tell them because they understand that, "what our ears tell us" can not be trusted. This is an audio fact.
Andre we can't measure what the brain ends up with, yet. And of course it differs from person to person, this fact alone should tell you that it is not just your equipment which is determining what you hear. Andy seems to have the same problem as you in understanding what we are measuring. We are measuring the stimulus not the result.
cheers
Jakob2 said:
No but I have seen electronic aids that click like a bat. Yeah this whole stereo-soundstage thing is interesting, have you heard a CD "Amused to Death" (or similar) by Roger Waters there are some serious beyond the speakers sounds. To do that, someone knows enough about how we localise sounds, to fool the brain into hearing things we know is impossible.
cheers
fredex said:
I have no problem with measuring the stimulus, after all thats the only way. I just feel that the normal measurements are not adequite to measure some of the differences that the brain can pick up.
If I can hear the same differences consistently, even in a blind test, then surely the stimulus must be different.
PS: The "fact" that our ears can not be trusted is also only a half truth and a generalisation.
Andy Graddon said:
So you were as "amazed" as a child when your dad told you "Andy, that's not a monster you are "hearing" under your bed, go back to sleep"
as you are now "amazed" when AJ tells you "Andy, that's not a ghost you are "hearing" up in your attic or an apparition emanating from inside your stereo".
Regardless of what your ears have constantly been telling you/us.
Yeah, I'll put basic measurements and basic theory "above" this. Call me sceptical or rational, I won't be insulted. 😉
cheers,
AJ
Andre Visser said:
If you could only explain why you feel like that we might get somewhere. My problem is that the ear is not as sensitive as today's instruments, so I can't see how it could pick up something an instrument couldn't. But I can understand that the brain could generate all sorts of aural experiences from the stimulus it gets.
Yes I would say so, and it should be measureable. If it is not you could be onto something.
If they sometimes tell lies they can't be trusted.
cheers
good thing those old fella hunters learnt to trust their ears and eyes, and maybe other instincts, else we might not be having this discussion 😀
Andy Graddon said:
A couple weeks ago, when I went to a triamped system. Two new cables, two new interconnects.
The last time I tried something "exotic" was about three or four years ago, at the urging of Frank deGrove. Different speakers then. Made no difference that I could tell. Waste of a few hours.
AJinFLA said:
I don't remember any monster, must have been your imagination...
the only time I am amazed at what you say is when it has a modicum of sense about it. ie not often !!
SY said:
On my main system, its probably a year or so ago, can't remember exactly .
changed from QED silver to some cat5e braids I made from a broken net cable, because the QED weren't long enough to let me put the tube amps properly in the cabinet.
I think I heard a slight different in the top end, but there would be significant differences in the wires. There was no way I was going to go switching them back to be sure !!
However.. I have been at a friend's place when he was playing with cables, and I am absolutely sure I could hear differences as he changes cables, and I had no expectation of what cable was what. He has access to "borrow" expensive cables whenever he want, so has experimented a lot just for the fun and the interest.
I would trust his ears and opinion over anything the objectionables have put forward as negative proof.
Man, thats what I'm trying to do. 😀
The differences I hear is mostly in the detail and "focus" of the soundstage. Any ideas of how to measure those are welcome.
They don't tell lies but they can be fooled. Luckily so or else there were no stereo. 😀
Our eyes can also be fooled, does that mean we can't enjoy a nice blond or must we feel first? A DBT, yes! 😀 😀 😀
André
There's no such thing as "negative proof," nor has anyone attempted to perform that logical impossibility (you still haven't gotten that, apparently). There is just a 100% absence of any actual evidence.
terry j said:
I think that these things, if they exist, will be very whole system oriented.. certainly if you want to "test" if someone did or didn't hear a difference, you should not change anything but the item under test. that is the only objective way to proceed.
As for visiting, sure, welcome to come and hear some of my creations anytime, but this place isn't the best sort of place for that sort of test. The only stable system is very awkward to change wires on. When I have time, I could try throwing some wires at a few of the other speakers and systems to see if I can hear anything worth investigating.
The guy with the system (mentioned above) I actually experienced "the difference" on would almost certainly not be amenable to that sort of thing, he does his own thing, and couldn't care what anyone else thinks !! 😀
Andre Visser said:
Not sure I'd like that sort of DBT too much either, maybe fun at the time, but a bit scary if you changed to a sighted afterwards and....................... 😱
Getting back to the original question, I've found that cables can be quite different whether they are speaker cables or interconnects. Cables form part of the overall system and should be viewed as such. It's been my observation that the higher the quality of the partnering equipment, the easier it is to spot changes in most instances.
I don't have to prove this as like most people have been blessed with 5 senses (some have even more) that I trust and use daily. I do not need someone behind a keyboard to tell me or others what I can or can't hear and leave the guys alone that can. If you can't hear a difference, that's fine. No member here has the right to be audio police laying down the law on other members and their beliefs and ridiculing them for it. Some of the comments have been disturbing and thankfully not common in the loudspeaker forum.
When someone alters the colour balance on the TV, do I need an instrument to tell me?
If a seafood meal is off and tastes like crap, do I need and instrument to tell me?
If the meal is too hot, do I need an instrument to tell me?
If the dog farts in the room, do I need an instrument to tell me?
Of course I don't as these senses have been honed over the years and it's no different with hearing. If I can't rely on my hearing to make judgements then I need another hobby or am not utilising a sense to it's capabilities.
When voicing a speaker it's all about adjustments to the LCR components in the crossover and it's the same with cables as the LCR variations will have an effect, though not on the same scale. This is noticeable with some amplifiers but can have little effect on other amplifiers and I'm sure is dependant on the amplifier design.
None of my speaker cables are expensive even though I've tried a few more expensive ones over the years. The preferred cable of choice is about A$8 per metre so doesn't rate as exotic just sensible engineering.
Measurements are fine and good luck to those that rely on them. Just don't go forcing it down the throat of others as I'm sick of reading it.
Let me mention Andy at this point. I won't go on about his academic achievements or qualifications but I'll tell you he knows a thing or two about music and sound. I'm fortunate to live in the same city and unlike most on this forum I get to hear his creations which are all voiced by ear. I usually get an invitation at the final tweaking stage for an opinion. He has the ability due to a fine ear and years of experience to pick up on a problem and instantly convert a fix into L / C / R values. He's very passionate about his music and loudspeakers which is very infectious. In addition he mixes for live gigs so knows what music should sound like.
Time for me to get out of this thread and listen to tunes.
Back to your regular program. 😉
I don't have to prove this as like most people have been blessed with 5 senses (some have even more) that I trust and use daily. I do not need someone behind a keyboard to tell me or others what I can or can't hear and leave the guys alone that can. If you can't hear a difference, that's fine. No member here has the right to be audio police laying down the law on other members and their beliefs and ridiculing them for it. Some of the comments have been disturbing and thankfully not common in the loudspeaker forum.
When someone alters the colour balance on the TV, do I need an instrument to tell me?
If a seafood meal is off and tastes like crap, do I need and instrument to tell me?
If the meal is too hot, do I need an instrument to tell me?
If the dog farts in the room, do I need an instrument to tell me?
Of course I don't as these senses have been honed over the years and it's no different with hearing. If I can't rely on my hearing to make judgements then I need another hobby or am not utilising a sense to it's capabilities.
When voicing a speaker it's all about adjustments to the LCR components in the crossover and it's the same with cables as the LCR variations will have an effect, though not on the same scale. This is noticeable with some amplifiers but can have little effect on other amplifiers and I'm sure is dependant on the amplifier design.
None of my speaker cables are expensive even though I've tried a few more expensive ones over the years. The preferred cable of choice is about A$8 per metre so doesn't rate as exotic just sensible engineering.
Measurements are fine and good luck to those that rely on them. Just don't go forcing it down the throat of others as I'm sick of reading it.
Let me mention Andy at this point. I won't go on about his academic achievements or qualifications but I'll tell you he knows a thing or two about music and sound. I'm fortunate to live in the same city and unlike most on this forum I get to hear his creations which are all voiced by ear. I usually get an invitation at the final tweaking stage for an opinion. He has the ability due to a fine ear and years of experience to pick up on a problem and instantly convert a fix into L / C / R values. He's very passionate about his music and loudspeakers which is very infectious. In addition he mixes for live gigs so knows what music should sound like.
Time for me to get out of this thread and listen to tunes.
Back to your regular program. 😉
AJinFLA said:
AJ,
I'm not sure what this example is supposed to proof. I mean, lots of children were quite certain, to the point of being terrified, that they actually heard a monster. Which, of course, wasn't there.
So, if this example of you proofs anything, it is that you can indeed be convinced to perceive something that isn't there.
Was that your point?
Jan Didden
fredex said:
Andy Graddon said:
fredex said brain, not ears. And he was right. Subjeckylandhydetevists are having a little trouble with this. Every time someone says the brain is doing it they say "see! see! I told you the ears are incredible!"
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