Pan said:
Never?
Pan said:
a) Peter, I have done some blind tests and always got the same results as when knowing what I was listening to.
The only problem I have with blind tests is that most of them are done on unknown systems (most of the time questionable in reproduction quality, maybe even setup) and using untrained "listeners".
b) I believe in CERTAIN aspects we can hear more than we are able to measure at this stage.
c) Many times the explanations are there but never good enough for those that "know everything".
The only one's claiming mystery or voodoo in cables are the unbelievers, most of them never tried it themselves on a good system. There are no mysteries, good design and quality material go a long way.
André
Pan said:
I see nothing wrong with what I said, perhaps the reason why my system sound better than yours. 😀
André
terry j said:
mmmmmm, chocolate and cinammon.
OOPS! 'kay, let me rephrase, ...bigger speaker cable sounds bigger. describing sound with words is like trying to explain 'blue' to stevie wonder, eh?
and, no tone controls for me, no EQ. goes against my purist philosophy of bang for the buck, and 'straight wire'. i want to hear recordings the way they came from the studio, not constantly be tweaking knobs to 'fix' some poor mixing/mastering. i want to hear the 'mistakes', so i don't make them.
i just went through my pile of 'cheap' stuff, and picked the speakers that worked best together, and then kept moving the speakers around, until they CAME ALIVE!!! lol. my idea of active EQ is pushing the speakers closer to the wall if there's not enough bass, and moving them right out of the room if they're biting me.
rotel rx945bx CD player - pawn shop $90
rotel ra-870, just using the preamp - second hand $125 (canadian)
dynaco qsa300 - found in garbage. $240 repair, OUCH! oh, well, an ample source of juice for 240. the thing can suck 10 AMPS of juice ....4X75watts driving...
2 paradigm 5se's -pawn shop $125
and
2 acoustic profiles ps88 3 way towers(made by the now defunct 'audiosphere research in toronto, ontario), $125
speaker cable 12 guage housing wire from canadian tire. i thought about getting yellow, but thought it would sound too banana-y, so i got black for somber tones. $40 worth at $3 a metre.
speaker stands -concrete blocks for the towers, and bricks for the paradigms which are on top of high bookshelves... total cost $2.50. i also put bricks on top of the towers to add a little rigidity. it adds more taragon flavour, and a hint of lilac scent.
total approx. $750 canadian.
sound. would put it against nearly anything. i've listened to conrad johson, rogers, mordaunt short, tannoy, kef, mission, mirage, magnepan, urei, dynaudio, apogee, wilsonwatt, thiel....etc. of course, some of those speakers sound way better, but, like you say, is it worth thousands of bucks to hear that little bit more? no. the speakers i picked sound REALLY good.
however, if i had the cash to burn, i would go with ribbons or electrostats.
i may build my own speakers. that's why i joined this forum. measure twice, cut once, you know. i'm just checking out the different philosophies, first.
terry j [/i] No. would have been the wrong way to go. It was not intended ion the slightest to 'hobble' the cheap system in order to produce a poor result sonically. It did show however that it is not necessary [I]to spend a lot of money to get 'as good' results as expensive units[/I]. As you say said:
dorky pants can fix just about any problem. hilarious!
Stuart, thank you for the reply. My question arises from my ignorance of electronics. I had envisaged feedback as something like this: at some stage in the propagation of the signal (I'm going wrong already, aren't I
), the waveform is compared to its form at an earlier stage; and, if there is a difference, a correction factor is applied at the earlier stage. I asked my original question because, if the signal propagates instantaneously, you seem to get into an infinite loop: changing the signal at an earlier stage means there was never a difference in the signal between the two stages (since it corrects instantaneously), so no feedback need be applied; so none is, and there is a difference, so feedback is applied; so there never was a difference...Apparently there's a flaw in this model (which has never, uh, hardly ever, uh, sometimes not happened to me before). If anyone is at leisure to explain what the flaw is, that would be kind - but if not, I'll just accept that and maybe even do some reading when I get the time (and find one of those torus-shaped tuits).
Regards.
Aengus
[edit]I thought "propogate" looked funny.
Because your comment assumes that those why do not believe in the mystic properties of cable have not in fact listened.Andre Visser said:
Like it or not, the whole cable frenzy has brought us a few benefits.
Better cables and connectors. 😀
I mean a least mechanically better. And that often results in electrically better connections.
Most of us here are old enough to remember the truly awful connectors of the 40s, 50s, and 60s. Junk! Flimsy, tiny, poorly made. Nostalgia aside, they were awful and caused soooo many problems. When they worked, they worked, but they were very unreliable. Cracking phenolic boards, loose screws, corrosion, connections pulling loose, frayed wires, cracked insulation, etc.
These days it's easy to find very nice, solid, reliable cables and connectors at a decent price, even cheap.
I don't ever want to go back to the cheap junk connectors of the mid 20th century.
And if you like fancy cables, you're spoiled for choice these days.
Better cables and connectors. 😀
I mean a least mechanically better. And that often results in electrically better connections.
Most of us here are old enough to remember the truly awful connectors of the 40s, 50s, and 60s. Junk! Flimsy, tiny, poorly made. Nostalgia aside, they were awful and caused soooo many problems. When they worked, they worked, but they were very unreliable. Cracking phenolic boards, loose screws, corrosion, connections pulling loose, frayed wires, cracked insulation, etc.
These days it's easy to find very nice, solid, reliable cables and connectors at a decent price, even cheap.
I don't ever want to go back to the cheap junk connectors of the mid 20th century.
And if you like fancy cables, you're spoiled for choice these days.
Panicos K said:
Hello Panicos!
Since I left my first post on an audio forum I've been shocked by the amount of belittling, disparaging & ridiculing of one person's opinion by another. Virtually everyone in this hobby will have a belief about audio that falls between:
1) The objective extreme that only speakers and their interaction with a room affects the final sound of an audio system.
2) The subjective extreme that everything matters thus all audio components & wires sound different & affect the final sound of an audio system.
3) Somewhere between these two extemes.
What really surprises me is the almost complete intolerance of one group towards the other group. In the over 4 decades that I've been involved in audio neither of these two extremes have converted any significant portion of one group to the other.
What I've yet come to understand is why does either group ---{subjectivist or objectivist}--- honestly gives a rat's a$$ why the other group chooses to assemble their audio system? Think about this honestly for a minute. ----------Do you really care what your next door neighbor's audio system sounds like?----------- Probably not and if not, then why would you care one iota about some other guy's system on the internet? I belong to the Central Florida Audio Society and truth be told I don't care how or why any of them chose to assemble their audio systems. If they ask me my opinion of their system I ALWAYS respond with do you want my honest opinion? And if they say yes I give my honest opinion but, I don't care if they change what I don't like about their systems!
IMHO and my opinion may be wrong, some online audio forums, by their lack of stopping these belittling, disparaging or ridiculing remarks, actually encourage these types of arguements. From what I've read I've come to believe the vast majority of the people who chose to engage in these subjective vs objective arguements ---{in any form of them}--- enjoy the arguing and belittling more than discussing audio! They feel safe hiding behind the anonymity of moniker and thus express themselves in such a manner as they would never do in person, if we were all in the same room discussing these topics at an audio society.
Have you ever noticed how an objectivist doesn't simply state their opinion: "I believe all audio components and wires sound the same or so close to the same as to be negligible in their affect on the sound. It's only the speakers and their interaction with a room that has significant affects on the final sound of an audio system." If they posted only that there would be nothing to argue with because it's just an expressed opinion. Unfortunately instead of just stating their opinions the poster will attempt to deliberately provoke the opposition by the addition of a belittling comment like "If someone else claims they're hearing differences in audio components or wires they're fooling themselves, claiming they have superhuman hearing abilities or are a victim of expectation bias or placebo effects!"
Of course subjectivists are equally guilty of doing this too. I've noticed subjectivists also don't just state their opinion: "I believe all audio components & wires sound different & affect the final sound of an audio system." either! Instead they're also attempting to provoke the opposition by the addition of a belittling comment of something like "If someone else claims they cannot hear these differences which are so blatantly obvious to everyone else they must be lying or else they're tone-deaf, tin ears who own mid-fi audio junk!"
These types of posts only serve to raise the oppostion's defenses & create an urge to respond back in kind and a bit more colorfully! If we could all stick to stating our opinions sans disparaging or belittling remarks about the oppostion. This could help to create an enviroment in which we could begin to focus on our common ground i.e., a love of music & audio. In time maybe our defenses would be lowered & perhaps minds on both sides would become more open & receptive towards the possibility of accepting there being some truth in what the opposition believes.
thetubeguy1954
Beliefs vs. facts
You should have quit at the end of the "I believe" statement. Then, no one could challenge your beliefs; instead, you make definitive statements about blind tests and non-believers w/o providing any evidence as to why such statements are factual.
It should be obvious that if someone does a "blind" test that is poorly thought out and improperly executed and then misinterpreted that the results would be suspect. One wonders just what your definition of a properly designed and executed "blind" test would be....
John L.
Brett said:
Andre Visser said:
You should have quit at the end of the "I believe" statement. Then, no one could challenge your beliefs; instead, you make definitive statements about blind tests and non-believers w/o providing any evidence as to why such statements are factual.
It should be obvious that if someone does a "blind" test that is poorly thought out and improperly executed and then misinterpreted that the results would be suspect. One wonders just what your definition of a properly designed and executed "blind" test would be....
John L.
You spend 40 $ of cables on a 580 $ system...
I still suggest 2-10% of price: 12 $ - 58 $, for your system getting 250 $ cables won’t make any difference.
My favorite seller says wires are just BS. He sells harbeth - audio research - project - creek and many others.
Also... if you think your setup is good, believe and be happy... I’ll say to you what I really think... I went to listen to the paradigm and it really disappoints me so much, I hope the tube distortion makes it sound better.
I still suggest 2-10% of price: 12 $ - 58 $, for your system getting 250 $ cables won’t make any difference.
My favorite seller says wires are just BS. He sells harbeth - audio research - project - creek and many others.
Also... if you think your setup is good, believe and be happy... I’ll say to you what I really think... I went to listen to the paradigm and it really disappoints me so much, I hope the tube distortion makes it sound better.
Re: Beliefs vs. facts
My statement about blind tests: "The only problem I have with blind tests is that most of them are done on unknown systems (most of the time questionable in reproduction quality, maybe even setup) and using untrained "listeners". "
I stated clearly it is a problem I have with most blind tests and still don't see anything wrong with what I said.
As for non-believers, most that I've talked to or read about never experimented with cable before "because there are no way that it can influence the sound". I did not say all, I have no problem with anyone who do not hear the differences, in fact sometimes I think they are lucky. 😀
Again, the problem I have with improperly executed "tests" are that they create false beliefs.
For starters I would suggest doing tests with someone that claim to hear differences, using his own (known) system. The rest of the test detail can also create long discussions.
André
auplater said:
My statement about blind tests: "The only problem I have with blind tests is that most of them are done on unknown systems (most of the time questionable in reproduction quality, maybe even setup) and using untrained "listeners". "
I stated clearly it is a problem I have with most blind tests and still don't see anything wrong with what I said.
As for non-believers, most that I've talked to or read about never experimented with cable before "because there are no way that it can influence the sound". I did not say all, I have no problem with anyone who do not hear the differences, in fact sometimes I think they are lucky. 😀
auplater said:
Again, the problem I have with improperly executed "tests" are that they create false beliefs.
For starters I would suggest doing tests with someone that claim to hear differences, using his own (known) system. The rest of the test detail can also create long discussions.
André
dukeoyork said:
heh heh, did you like that? For sure, 'only in my system', for listening I prefer Chocolate and Cheese' (album title)
dukeoyork [/i]OOPS! 'kay said:
good luck, let us know how you go.
dukeoyork [/i]i think the greater dynamic range measured in your level matching white noise tests was due to compression. as transistors approach their saturation point said:
I understand the points you raised, and agree with some. I can only speak for myself I spose, but a lot of it comes from upset over spreading of 'untrue' data.
We all have our own personal boundaries of course. I try to not take an extreme stance on anything, so take the more reasonable position of simply saying that the effects of cables are vastly over-rated. And as such it would be prudent to not over represent their true value in the system by spending too much.
In many ways it could be a backlash against the (seemingly) increasing opposition to rational thought in society, which is a topic for another forum!
There are many here who have very different views than I, but I often validate them when their views are expressed calmly and with dignity.. Hence my agreement with the gist of your comments
panomaniac said:
Ofcourse you are right
But I wouldnt be surpriced if those old flimsy and unreliable rca connecters actually sounded much better than those "gold" connectors that followed, and was supposed to be the best ever but reality was the worst ever
Ofcourse, now a days there are some real good rca out there, but most of the "highend" stuff is really just awfull and close to cheats
I believe the seventies were in fact "ruled" by dedicated and positive "audiophiles", and it was a good period fore hifi, although without the internet we have today it was a bit more difficult
From the eighties and up till now it has been really awfully commercial, and quality have been really poor
Just these years things seem to change again
There have never been so much tube gear around
Horns are really hot
Turntables and vinyl have fans
DIY is becoming more and more advanced
This is very much benefits from internet
So I see a lot of the good positive things from the seventies is happening again
I sure dont hope the eighties comes back too 🙄
I can only give my own experience with a blind test I was involved in run by the local audio club at least 15 years ago (maybe more). The test was of speaker cables and there were
20 ABX (from memory) comparisons made. B was the control, A was either the control or a different cable, X repeated A. The listener had to to decide whether cable B was the same or different to cable A. The speaker cables were changed behind screens.
I recall being annoyed with myself for only getting 19 out of 20 correct. I did find the test highly stressful since I definitely believed I had heard differences in my own and friends systems. It was also very tiring and irritating hearing the same music selections time and again...
Rob.
20 ABX (from memory) comparisons made. B was the control, A was either the control or a different cable, X repeated A. The listener had to to decide whether cable B was the same or different to cable A. The speaker cables were changed behind screens.
I recall being annoyed with myself for only getting 19 out of 20 correct. I did find the test highly stressful since I definitely believed I had heard differences in my own and friends systems. It was also very tiring and irritating hearing the same music selections time and again...
Rob.
Aengus, all feedback is is a subtraction of one signal from another. An amplifier has an inverting and noninverting input, and its output is its open loop gain times the difference between the two signals. At audio, the input signal and the feedback signal essentially rise and fall together- it's that tiny difference that's amplified.
Now the wonderful thing is that when you set up your amplifier this way, the gain is essentially set by that feedback signal, which is merely a divided down version of the output. The equations are simple (junior high math) and beautiful.
Now the wonderful thing is that when you set up your amplifier this way, the gain is essentially set by that feedback signal, which is merely a divided down version of the output. The equations are simple (junior high math) and beautiful.
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