Re: Been ther, done that
How does it sound when you run music through it and listen to the speakers at the end?
auplater said:
How does it sound when you run music through it and listen to the speakers at the end?
Cal Weldon said:
This platinum wire is $40/m. No audiophile would be seen dead using such cheap rubbish. You might find that the cheapest speaker cable in some audio stores are more expensive than this.
dukeoyork said:
That is very much my approach to audio, yeah. I certainly realise that it is not everyones.
It got lost in the leadup time to the gtg, but what we were actually testing was the following quote from earle geddes
I am not saying that there are no audible differences in amplifiers, cables or what ever; I really don’t care either way. You see, to me, there are three things in audio playback that make up 95-99% of the experience; the speakers, the room, and the speaker to room interface. Everything else falls into the “negligible” category; audible by some - probably; statistically significant across a large population - I doubt it. So go ahead and argue about the audibility of cables or what-not, I’m really not interested. It’s so hard to get that crucial 95% right that I don’t have the time, and especially the money, to worry much about the other 5%.
That says exactly what I think the sensible approach to audio is. Of course it helps that I (like most here) have and can build our own speakers!😀
My own system is a complete testament to that approach, with (IMHO) commensurate results.
You woulda thunk that that 'insight' may have occurred to a few participants (or other members of the forum), but it seems not. A common comment I guess was that even tiny improvements are worth it in the long run (as they are lived with for a long time). I can see the validity of that viewpoint, but most seemed to miss your point.
Reminds me of the time I went and auditioned a very expensive MF tri vista cdp, around $13 000 ten years ago, against my old el cheapo marantz mini disc- vdp in one. Again, I simply could not hear a difference, straining to hear that 'one new note' type of thing. Anyway, after a while I relaxed (maybe yet another confounding factor in tests like these? One participant in particular said he thought it would be a walkover and was shocked when he first compared them....he suddenly felt the pressure come on even tho he was relaxed before) and after relaxing, and a few hours I might add, I could hear these little, subtle yet worthwhile improvements.
But to go from a $600 cdp to a $13 000 cdp for that level of improvement???? Forgeddaboudit.
Same here, the cost was simply not justified (and all agreed, notwithstanding the seeming success of the 80%)
That to me is the godsend thinking to the audio industry. take a flawed component (bright speaker) and then sell expensive 'fixes' (usually another flawed component but opposite -supposedly - in character). Then wait a little while till the fundamental deficiencies (bright speaker...cables won't fix that) force an upgrade and he goes and buys a dull speaker in sheer protest at the screeching that rips his ears off.....and then sell him a bright cable!
And the merry-go-round continues.
Hey!! If you want to control the brightness of your speakers buy a good pro equalizer! At least you can turn it off when it suits or change the sound according to whim.
without a doubt.
oops. sounds like marketing copy suddenly. (marketing copy will not simply say 'buy adequately sized cables, but will rely on silly descriptions,,,, silky? Sure it is not velvet and you are confused? I prefer chocolatey with a hint of cinnamon myself)
No. would have been the wrong way to go. It was not intended ion the slightest to 'hobble' the cheap system in order to produce a poor result sonically.
It did show however that it is not necessary to spend a lot of money to get 'as good' results as expensive units. As you say, well sized speaker cable is adequate. And these results go a long way to showing that.
We did use the absolute lowest quality interconnects available, the ones supplied with Tandy type gear.
We fully intended to go even further in the disparity but due to technical probs that didn't happen. I may even use a chip amp I have laying around, but it does not have a vol control so a bit hard to level match.
It is just a start, and suggestions in other tests are welcome, but I would be a little 'annoyed' I guess if this was just bagged by others.
After all, we did get off our butts and do something. And the results are valid in and of themselves (which does not mean they can't be improved or other things tested).
And let us be honest, if there was ever a field that needs these sort of 'mythbusting' tests, it is audio no?......
Panicos, well let me preface this with the observation that your english is waaaay better than my greek!!!!
synergy in english is kinda how you used it, but has the added connotation of 'unknown', that there is something about the two working together that produces a magical (and unknowable) result.
Trouble is that a) in engineering like this it is not 'unknowable' (and so in the laps of the gods or fate, or the stars or the state of the tides) and b) usually is simply code for 'I don't know what to say but I like the sound'.
Useless.
But deep and meaningful, especially if you stroke your goatee and look mysterious gazing over your wire rimmed spectacles whilst saying it.
Terry I undestand what you explained now.Actually matching would have been closer to what I was trying to say.I was -I have to say-motivated mostly,not by the expensive system used in your tests,but by my friends system,which by the way cannot be saved even if it was in the laps of gods as you said.
I believe that there are combinations that simply don't work and trying to avoid such combinations no mater how much they cost,it is much wiser move,than trying to "correct"things after you have spent a fortune on them.Again I speak for the system I heard.Unfortunately,this friend is now in the final phase of his distructive approach,looking for the "magic cables" that will solve the problem.We do not dissagree so much as you might think.I just pay some attention to cables as the final step before concentrating to the music for good.No big money on them as few were trying to present here because of some comments I made,but not the absolute minimum I could get either.Of course for some it might be too much I guess,but this is always the case not only for cables,but also cars,houses etc.... I'm just a working man as anyone else here🙂
I'm trying to improve my English here too,I wish I could help with your Greek🙂 There are are many similarities though,for example synergeia......hahaha to start with.You know it is that "S" word🙂
I believe that there are combinations that simply don't work and trying to avoid such combinations no mater how much they cost,it is much wiser move,than trying to "correct"things after you have spent a fortune on them.Again I speak for the system I heard.Unfortunately,this friend is now in the final phase of his distructive approach,looking for the "magic cables" that will solve the problem.We do not dissagree so much as you might think.I just pay some attention to cables as the final step before concentrating to the music for good.No big money on them as few were trying to present here because of some comments I made,but not the absolute minimum I could get either.Of course for some it might be too much I guess,but this is always the case not only for cables,but also cars,houses etc.... I'm just a working man as anyone else here🙂
I'm trying to improve my English here too,I wish I could help with your Greek🙂 There are are many similarities though,for example synergeia......hahaha to start with.You know it is that "S" word🙂
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't beleive cables make a difference, any input?
So they say! Where's Jocko Homo when you need him? Oh, yeah, he has his own forum now.
If the receiver is better, then there might not be any difference between 2 cables, because the receiver "fixes" it. I would imagine there is a threshold there somewhere.
That would be harder with an analog signal (fixing it).
analog_sa said:
So they say! Where's Jocko Homo when you need him? Oh, yeah, he has his own forum now.
If the receiver is better, then there might not be any difference between 2 cables, because the receiver "fixes" it. I would imagine there is a threshold there somewhere.
That would be harder with an analog signal (fixing it).
Panicos K said:
What have you ever heard that measured great and sounded bad, *in a controlled listening test*?
In fact, have you ever been in a controlled test of a hifi component?
Regarding Strad violins, are you aware that controlled listening tests have shown that Strads are rated to sound no better, sometimes worse, than new violins that are relatively cheap?
Are you also aware of how extremely infuriating this finding has been for violin afficionados and 'experts' around the world, and how every time a new test is published (the test result is always the same) they suddenly launch into a million endless criticisms of the test methodology, anything but reconsider their totally fixed personal viewpoint? Are you aware of how arrogant this looks to unbiased observers?
Can you see the parallel in this very thread on hifi cables? The parallel arrogance? The parallel 'invention of excuses'?
Let me state the basics once more:
- yes cables will (sometimes) sound different in controlled tests when one or more of them is being misused (inappropriate RLC for the application)
- otherwise no, they will not sound different in controlled tests
- yes all cables will sound different in uncontrolled tests, because of the power of the mind to use information (other than sound waves) to influence perceptions
- no, no amount of prior knowledge will enable us to override the mind and hear the truth during uncontrolled listening tests.
If this very thread were to result in one person, perhaps even yourself, to gain humility and reconsider views that were held as fixed, would that not be a great thing?
tnargs said:
I am the only person in these threads who has noticed and felt arrogance and rudness because of some of my opinions and thoughts.If you find that post arrogant,and don't find arrogant the posts that forced me to reply this way,then you are very unfair to me.
A Stradivari is what it is.What do you mean that other cheaper violins sound better?The Strad is loved and respected for what it is,and not for how some compare it to cheaper violins.True,cheaper violins can sound good too.
tnargs said:
Properly controlled and statitically valid listening tests of hifi compenents are very rare and often of limited scope (and usually costly -- either in time or money or both). Certainly most of the so called blind tests we see bandied about are not.
dave
Andre Visser said:
But Andre, why is it no one ever in the history in the world have shown that there is or coiud be such a thing with any significance at all?
a) Blind test, if it is audible it should be audible even when you don't know which DUT is in the circuit. Believers often say "hey I believe my ears, you should to" or somethig liek that. Fine, then a blind test would be just perfect because then you are using your ears only
b) Measuremetnds that show an effect big enough to be of significance accroding to all we know about human hearing.
c) Some kind of argument that could pass as an plausible explanation for the claims being done.
I know of a couple of examples where people have heard a difference in controlled listening tests but R-C-L or possibly screening has been able to explain it.
/Peter
Panicos K said:
Nothing stops you from performing long term blind tests or getting used to teh gear for a couple of weeks and get to know the sonics and then you can go do a controlled listenoing tests when you have nailed down the identity..
All these lame excuses just looks like desperate attempts at hanging on to the mysticism and vodoo instead of open up the mind and smell the real world.
/Peter
mwaters10 said:
Absolutely!
ESL's typically drop to a couple of ohms at 15-20kHz. It's a dip from the resonance thas is made by the transformer and the membrane and stators (big cap).
Agree.
Interconnects are typically flat way beyond the audio band but speaker cables often have big enough inductance to casue an audible roll off at 10-20k if used with low impedance speakers.
If this factor is removed/accounted for audible differences between speaker cables typically disappear.
Yup!
Well I basically agree with you about cables but I wouldn't use www.lampizator.eu as a source of science and physics.
/Peter
Some more basics on dbts 🙂 :
-) double blind tests produce false results as easily as every other test
-) participants in db listening tests don't decide only by using their ears. Still a lot of possible biases are present and listeners have to learn to listen under these conditions
-) the term "controlled" means something different than "using controls"
A dbt that does not use sufficient controls is nearly useless, because nobody will know about reliability or validity
-) a dbt has to be well documented including raw data for statistical analysis, without documentation it is impossible to evaluate the methodology used
-) double blind tests produce false results as easily as every other test
-) participants in db listening tests don't decide only by using their ears. Still a lot of possible biases are present and listeners have to learn to listen under these conditions
-) the term "controlled" means something different than "using controls"
A dbt that does not use sufficient controls is nearly useless, because nobody will know about reliability or validity
-) a dbt has to be well documented including raw data for statistical analysis, without documentation it is impossible to evaluate the methodology used
Pan said:
No excuses for anything Peter and no attempt to hang on anything.My system is there serving me for music and nothing has changed in/on it for a very very long time.Just the lid of the amp is permanently off lately,playing with some tubes.Although I have no need for a blind test on cables-you see I changed my cables twice in 25 years and that because I needed longer lengths in my new place-I was offered in another thread to do a blind test,in my place,with my system and choice of cables,which of course any one can inspect before.All the rest is "mumbo jumbo"as you said.Why?As you said you know of people who have heard diferences in a controlled test and yet you are trying to explain what they heard with an assumption that RLC might have been the reason.Since you know they have heard diferences,why haven't you tried to take some measurments and see if what they heard was a few picofarads or a negligible resistance diference?
Aengus said:
Why wouldn't it? His statement isn't strictly true, but it's a good approximation at audio frequencies. The feedback equations do not rely on a time delay. 1/(1+Ab) doesn't have a time factor.
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