Hi Mooly,
To know how noise from an LP, including rumble looks like, have a look at this posting.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/anal...umble-filter-douglas-self-12.html#post4666449
You should take the set in the middle that shows the noise when playing an unmodulated track.
Adding that noise to a perfect CD recording, could bring you a step in the direction of simulating an LP.
I'm sure you know how to shape noise like this with LTSpice.
I would be happy to test the result on my ESL's.
Hans
Thanks Hans. I just tried plotting the spectrum from the last seconds of my track, and I can see my 'rumble' extends to far in frequency.
I was just curious as much as anything, to see whether the added LF content altered what is a clean digital file, perhaps giving it a touch of something that would appeal to the vinyl aficionados.
I was just curious as much as anything, to see whether the added LF content altered what is a clean digital file, perhaps giving it a touch of something that would appeal to the vinyl aficionados.
Attachments
As mr. Self asked, is there any interest in the Devinyliser PCB? I'd be very interested in buying one.
I'm not...
I am born with vinyl, and will die with vinyl, so that am perfectly conscious of how bad vinyl sucks. Don't need Mr Self's junk for whatever it might be "usefull"..😀
Sure, me too, and am also sure that for the next 50 years Mr Self will keep hanging/trolling around...😀
I have been doing extensive A/B listening tests to various pieces on music that I have in both vinyl and in digital form. I am still trying to assess: Why does vinyl sound better to me?
Me too. But...these days not all vinyls are created equal. I suspect that industry has reacted too quickly in recent years pressing or printing vinyls out of digitally remastered records...files whatever. That vinyl sound is not the one we used to love. It is similar to the sound out of CDs. I dunno why but particularly from records in 180 grams vinyl. I don't have esotheric components nor tables but stil I have tested that impression on 3 different systems in my house. Results are the same...older vinyl sounds more pleasant comparing to new imprints or CD.
Maybe our ears were not made for bit by bit perfection or we talk of desperate hope to live the life as we did some 30 years ago?
You can only really do a A/B test with exactly the same material.
This means, A/D recording the LP with a high quality A/D converter, recording it as 16bit 44.1Khz CD and play it back.
That will prove whether or not digitizing degrades the signal.
If not satisfied, you could go to 24bit/96Khz and listen again.
If no difference can be heard, simply transfer all your LP's to your digital library and you have the best of both worlds
Hans
It would be really interesting to perform A/B test with 'Brothers In Arms' in vinyl and CD form. That was the first album made in CD. There was also CC form of that album but it is not for purists.
That time was really strange and prelude for tragic world in which we live now and cry for vinyl.
Really strange...people were so shocked in listening the silence out of CD (between 'tracks') and ashamed to admit that emperor really is naked. Even members of Dire Straits (if it is to believe to the stories from newspapers) immediately observed that vinyl was 'better'...or pleasant...or with greater dynamic. But they kept their mouth...huh..below loudness.
That time was really strange and prelude for tragic world in which we live now and cry for vinyl.
Really strange...people were so shocked in listening the silence out of CD (between 'tracks') and ashamed to admit that emperor really is naked. Even members of Dire Straits (if it is to believe to the stories from newspapers) immediately observed that vinyl was 'better'...or pleasant...or with greater dynamic. But they kept their mouth...huh..below loudness.
Sorry, but it appears I went into a rant...
As Hans Polak (may have) implied in the previous post, a commercial CD and a commercial LP of the same title may have "the same material" but they are certainly not processed the same way. More to the point of this thread, for "mastering" the LP (and this is the older meaning of the word, preparing a recording to be recorded on a record cutting machine to cut a master) the stereo signal is made mono below 100-200 Hz or so, but this is not necessarily done on the CD. Likewise, other things such as compression and EQ are likely to be done differently depending on the target medium.
Also, if you have the original CD release of "the first album made to CD" it might have been made with a 14-bit successive-approximation A-D converter, and they likely did not use dither nor the more advanced noise shaping techniques that would have improved the sound of the CD. If there were some "hi fi nuts" that objected to how the CD sounded, so what, there was money to be made releasing it as it was, because as far as the masses were concerned, CD was already much better than LP, especially on the average consumer turntable of the time.
The "Perfect Sound Forever" of CD was for the great majority of music consumers who were disappointed that new releases no longer came out in 8-track cartridges, as well as those who had already switched over to Compact Cassette.
This era wasn't far removed from (this might have still happened at the end of the LP era) the time when a record company executive would not sign off on releasing a record unless it played without skipping on their child's Close'n'play record player (the Kenner model, not the Technics linear turntables which got that nickname).
Again, for a fair comparison, you need to digitize the LP with some modern A-D converters and burn a CD-R of it, and then compare THAT to the LP played on the same turntable with the same cartridge.
As Hans Polak (may have) implied in the previous post, a commercial CD and a commercial LP of the same title may have "the same material" but they are certainly not processed the same way. More to the point of this thread, for "mastering" the LP (and this is the older meaning of the word, preparing a recording to be recorded on a record cutting machine to cut a master) the stereo signal is made mono below 100-200 Hz or so, but this is not necessarily done on the CD. Likewise, other things such as compression and EQ are likely to be done differently depending on the target medium.
Also, if you have the original CD release of "the first album made to CD" it might have been made with a 14-bit successive-approximation A-D converter, and they likely did not use dither nor the more advanced noise shaping techniques that would have improved the sound of the CD. If there were some "hi fi nuts" that objected to how the CD sounded, so what, there was money to be made releasing it as it was, because as far as the masses were concerned, CD was already much better than LP, especially on the average consumer turntable of the time.
The "Perfect Sound Forever" of CD was for the great majority of music consumers who were disappointed that new releases no longer came out in 8-track cartridges, as well as those who had already switched over to Compact Cassette.
This era wasn't far removed from (this might have still happened at the end of the LP era) the time when a record company executive would not sign off on releasing a record unless it played without skipping on their child's Close'n'play record player (the Kenner model, not the Technics linear turntables which got that nickname).
You have perfectly explained the reason why you can never just compare an LP with a CD. That was exactly the reason for my suggestion to digitize an LP.
Hans
I've been digitizing my collection of vinyl for some time, and have actually done this comparison several times.
My equipment may not be state of the art, but I hear zero difference between playing the vinyl vs the digitized copy. I am totally satisfied with the results, and will continue the project until my hundreds of vinyl albums are "on file" in my server.
My equipment may not be state of the art, but I hear zero difference between playing the vinyl vs the digitized copy. I am totally satisfied with the results, and will continue the project until my hundreds of vinyl albums are "on file" in my server.
Why digitize something you have at hand on your shelves?🙄
I like the idea of applying some dsp for reducing rumble, or lo cut the top octave to reduce clicks/crackle, but this can be done in real time, while playing the LP. No need to archive to get this done.
I would only digitize for applying more heavy dsp restoration corrections( denoising, declicking, decrackling, etc...) that cannot be used in realtime.
Don't belong to the Self vinylizer's squad that would corrupt fine digital XXI century state of the art recordings with ugly old fashion XX century sound fxs...
Rumblelelelele...😀
Btw, the medium on which analog recording treasures of the past century have been made on is magnetic tape, not vinyl... Any idea for a Studerizer or a Nagralyzer of some kind for MP3 to DSD junk digital stuff?
I like the idea of applying some dsp for reducing rumble, or lo cut the top octave to reduce clicks/crackle, but this can be done in real time, while playing the LP. No need to archive to get this done.
I would only digitize for applying more heavy dsp restoration corrections( denoising, declicking, decrackling, etc...) that cannot be used in realtime.
Don't belong to the Self vinylizer's squad that would corrupt fine digital XXI century state of the art recordings with ugly old fashion XX century sound fxs...
Rumblelelelele...😀
Btw, the medium on which analog recording treasures of the past century have been made on is magnetic tape, not vinyl... Any idea for a Studerizer or a Nagralyzer of some kind for MP3 to DSD junk digital stuff?
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Why digitize? Convenience. My main system lives in our dining room, and at present is totally hidden. It's run by an OrangePi, which does DSP and crossover duty, and is accessed by any of the computers/tablets in the house. Speakers/subs located in the living room, and elsewhere. When I'm in my upstairs office, I can choose what to listen to without running downstairs every 20 minutes... As long as the sound is fine, I'm good, and I tested for that.
I had feeling that this thread was really about THIS: "Why we might prefer vinyl sound to digital sound?"
Thread is already too long, almost 1k of posts and already 'enriched' with various myths or to say more politely hypothesis (to be discussed not argued).
As "Mr Spok" from Star Trek said "It is in the human nature to discuss..."
Rant?
I'd be careful with use of that word.
Cheers
Update:
As most of you know, I will be giving a rant on The Devinyliser at the Paris AES convention in June. I have prepared a PowerPoint presentation for this, which will be freely available on my website at douglas-self.com nearer the time. I will let you know when it's there.
As for The Vinyliser, that is being worked on right now. Here's my plan:
1) Generate white noise
2) Turn it into pink noise so it's flat on the spectrum anayser
3) Put it through a shaping filter that reproduces the warp spectrum as given by Happ & Karlov's paper.
4) Put it through a peaking highpass filter that emulates the cartridge/arm resonance.
5) Generate anti-phase versions of signal and mix with incoming CD audio.
All of this is working, though not yet fully developed. No 3) is the difficult bit.
Any comments, suggestions will be very welcome.
How and when the Vinyliser will be published remains to be seen.
As most of you know, I will be giving a rant on The Devinyliser at the Paris AES convention in June. I have prepared a PowerPoint presentation for this, which will be freely available on my website at douglas-self.com nearer the time. I will let you know when it's there.
As for The Vinyliser, that is being worked on right now. Here's my plan:
1) Generate white noise
2) Turn it into pink noise so it's flat on the spectrum anayser
3) Put it through a shaping filter that reproduces the warp spectrum as given by Happ & Karlov's paper.
4) Put it through a peaking highpass filter that emulates the cartridge/arm resonance.
5) Generate anti-phase versions of signal and mix with incoming CD audio.
All of this is working, though not yet fully developed. No 3) is the difficult bit.
Any comments, suggestions will be very welcome.
How and when the Vinyliser will be published remains to be seen.
White noise is flat on a spectrum analyser.
Pink noise is only flat when displaying it per octave or per part of an octave.
Hans
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