As far as I remember the trick with the Dynavector was that with aid of the sub-arm counterweight and varying headshell weights the effective mass could be adjusted to suit almost any cartridge.
Hi George, actually division into vertical and lateral planes is entirely artificial. There is only one continuous spring-mass system in 2D, so if one adjusts inertia or compliance in vertical or lateral directions, the effect is progressive for headshell motion in all directions in between. Think about it, the headshell is free to move in 2 dimensions, and does continuously ! I think this is an important concept to get to grip with what really happens in cart/arm mechanics. It is a continuous 2D system. The major resonances depend on axis, but any 1D axis has its own specific resonance, and any displacement has a complex natural path.
As to reduced vertical inertia in that design, there is always the irreducible inertia of the cartridge/fixings mass itself, and that is significant in this case. Yes it's low effective mass for vertical motion as arms go, but the cart mass always spoils the show.
The big downside of short arms is vertical 'warp scub' or extra pitch variation with warp. Shows up with some linear arms too, because of short length.
Anyways, toward the weeds we head, so best take it inside I think !
No worries Bill, here is some new stuff.
Below we see the <200 Hz spectrum of three different vinyl recordings from 3 different systems.
There is Dark Side of the Moon, Brothers in Arms and a stereo Sinatra.
Blue shows the in-phase signal, Red shows the out of phase (left channel only)
The LF noise is different on all 3. The ratio of in and out of phase is similar on 2 recordings, not on the other.
This is of interest to know just how much out of phase noise there is down low compared to the in phase (mono) noise. Gives an idea of what would be removed of in a De-Vinylizer.
Below we see the <200 Hz spectrum of three different vinyl recordings from 3 different systems.
There is Dark Side of the Moon, Brothers in Arms and a stereo Sinatra.
Blue shows the in-phase signal, Red shows the out of phase (left channel only)
The LF noise is different on all 3. The ratio of in and out of phase is similar on 2 recordings, not on the other.
This is of interest to know just how much out of phase noise there is down low compared to the in phase (mono) noise. Gives an idea of what would be removed of in a De-Vinylizer.
Attachments
I've done the work for you. 
That is the 1st track "Speak to Me". Below you'll find Out of Phase noise from Vinyl vs CD
There is much more VLF noise off vinyl, but in phase and out of phase on what I have looked at. In fact, it looks like some, or maybe many CD masters have a HP filter circa 20Hz.
That is the 1st track "Speak to Me". Below you'll find Out of Phase noise from Vinyl vs CD
There is much more VLF noise off vinyl, but in phase and out of phase on what I have looked at. In fact, it looks like some, or maybe many CD masters have a HP filter circa 20Hz.
Attachments
You're welcome.
Yes, but it looks like some of that is noise. As for the rest, what is legit signal and what is nose? It would take some digging to find out.
To me, it's beginning to look like all you need is a 3rd order HP filter at 20Hz to de-vinylize your records. 4th order is too steep. Do that and the low end of Vinyl and CD look a lot alike.
Yes, but it looks like some of that is noise. As for the rest, what is legit signal and what is nose? It would take some digging to find out.
To me, it's beginning to look like all you need is a 3rd order HP filter at 20Hz to de-vinylize your records. 4th order is too steep. Do that and the low end of Vinyl and CD look a lot alike.
Here is another way of looking at it. The graph below shows balance, phase and spectrum of a silent groove from a 1960s era test LP.
Solid red is balance, where you can see some significant errors, dashed red is phase difference between the channels. 1/6th octave smoothing for both.
Green is the noise spectrum of the system; silent groove, Stanton cart, Grado wooden tone arm, Rek-o-Kut Rondine Jr, cable hum, etc. Value not absolute. No smoothing.
It's what you might call Vinyl Noise.
Solid red is balance, where you can see some significant errors, dashed red is phase difference between the channels. 1/6th octave smoothing for both.
Green is the noise spectrum of the system; silent groove, Stanton cart, Grado wooden tone arm, Rek-o-Kut Rondine Jr, cable hum, etc. Value not absolute. No smoothing.
It's what you might call Vinyl Noise.
Attachments
Kirchhoff, that's not bad, but for a really deep clean you need one of these:
http://41.media.tumblr.com/a41a0e62604814d81bc23364836fa0d5/tumblr_mp67dh3FYa1rjnz7ro1_1280.jpg
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B625x1CeTxYubWh0cW9vcTd1VWc&usp=sharing
In the folder above you will find 4 files. There is CD and vinyl rip straight up, and also vinyl that has been de-vinylized and CD that has been vinylized.
Before you analyze the files, have a listen. They should be easy to tell apart. Do any of them sound more exciting or alive than the others? Do any sound worse or just different?
Let us know what you think.
In the folder above you will find 4 files. There is CD and vinyl rip straight up, and also vinyl that has been de-vinylized and CD that has been vinylized.
Before you analyze the files, have a listen. They should be easy to tell apart. Do any of them sound more exciting or alive than the others? Do any sound worse or just different?
Let us know what you think.
In Adobe Audition one can take sample of noise and remove from signal content at specific frequency bands with varying degree of threshold. One can listen to only noise and hear if any signal is present or not.
I dont have good hearing but I like Sample C. Sample A and B sounded same to me. Would be interesting to see what that tells me about my hearing and listening preferences. I listen mostly to vinyl due to lack of good sounding digital versions of Indian Classicals and Hindi Songs.
Regards.
Thanks for taking the time to listen a report. I'll post the key to the files later.
FWIW, I liked the vinyl version a little better than the others, but the vinylized version was close. None were very different, on my system.
There is something subtle going on here, I think that Douglas may have found an important part of the vinyl sound.
FWIW, I liked the vinyl version a little better than the others, but the vinylized version was close. None were very different, on my system.
There is something subtle going on here, I think that Douglas may have found an important part of the vinyl sound.
One clip is listenable.
The other three are garbage.
Which CD and vinyl pressing did you use?
Here is same segment from: Capitol Records – CDP 7 46001 2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jle4j2cwtqn5lvx/Ref CD remaster .wav?dl=0
This sounds better than any of your linked clips.
Last edited:
Hey Mooly. I guess we can post here. It's not a scientific test, just want to know if you hear anything, and what it might be.
I don't know about 3 of them being "garbage". The CD rip is from the 30th anniversary hybrid CD/SACD. Maybe not the same master as your early CD. The vinyl is Mobile Fidelity MFSL 1-017.
Barely, which one did you think was OK?
I don't know about 3 of them being "garbage".
The CD rip is from the 30th anniversary hybrid CD/SACD. Maybe not the same master as your early CD. The vinyl is Mobile Fidelity MFSL 1-017.Barely, which one did you think was OK?
Okey dokey, here we go (nearly posted all this earlier but saved it
)OK, here we go... lol, and for what its worth I must be one of the only people on the planet not to have really listened to this album/track in the past.
Initial listen and B and C both have an odd flutter in the hf on the left channel. Like a fluttering shh, shh, shh kind of noise. This is not present on A and E.
A and E both have high levels of hiss and also a weird hum that seems to wander in and out of phase (or at least the level appears to alter as the track progresses). The hiss in A seemed a little purer or whiter.
At this point A and E sound a little lightweight compared to B and C. I also can't shake the impression that there is some kind of noise envelope following the bass of A and E.
B and C seem to have an audible low level (very low level) 'something' going on in the first part of the track that is apparent audibly in the right channel. It sounds almost like voices in a cellar recorded at say 16kbs and mixed in at a very low level. That info is missing from A and E.
Which do I prefer though. Well it has to be B or C really. C seems the most musically enjoyable (lol is this music
) with B slightly having a slightly more processed sound, but these two are very very close sonically. The other two are out of the running, noisy, hissy, hummy and lightweight with all the low level detail missing.- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.