Thanks pal, I found his web site. Very interesting person. Silent speakers is exactly what I was looking for. I found them, by chance, with the Sony speakers. I got the idea/hunch, from practically nowhere. Of course, I can see the black boxes, but as a source of sound, they have vanished, silent speakers. 
Thanks again, pal for giving this person's name.
Thanks again, pal for giving this person's name.
Last edited:
The Planet 10 microTowers that I showed earlier are both a tribute to, and based upon (to a degree) the EPI model of the same name.
Could be, but without the front firing speaker driver. You like it, and that's what matters. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Most of the sound that one hears is reflected off the walls and the ceiling, so the best is to have the speaker drivers looking upwards. The slightly turned toward the listener speaker drivers are mostly eye-candy.
Since the beginning of the speakers, people are used to them looking at you, straight or at an angle. But, people were always searching for the lost sound. So, the back open speaker boxes, back and top open speaker boxes (open-baffle), speaker drivers in a back open tubes horizontally placed and so on, but without getting away from the standard look one is used to -- speakers facing the listener.
Some people like to look at their speakers, their work and they are entitled to that. But, once a person found out the vanishing speaker, it will be pretty hard to go back to the time-honoured-look.
Every kind of boxed or unboxed speakers, vented, TLs, BLHs etc, are looking at you, and they never vanish from the listening perception, as the source of the artificial sound.
Most of the sound that one hears is reflected off the walls and the ceiling, so the best is to have the speaker drivers looking upwards. The slightly turned toward the listener speaker drivers are mostly eye-candy.
Since the beginning of the speakers, people are used to them looking at you, straight or at an angle. But, people were always searching for the lost sound. So, the back open speaker boxes, back and top open speaker boxes (open-baffle), speaker drivers in a back open tubes horizontally placed and so on, but without getting away from the standard look one is used to -- speakers facing the listener.
Some people like to look at their speakers, their work and they are entitled to that. But, once a person found out the vanishing speaker, it will be pretty hard to go back to the time-honoured-look.
Every kind of boxed or unboxed speakers, vented, TLs, BLHs etc, are looking at you, and they never vanish from the listening perception, as the source of the artificial sound.
- not true....My 3way system has all yellow drivers, with blue or black cabinets.....my 4" mid range covers ~130hz-2.2khz and the 1" dome on top...12" on bottom...the polar is very wide, the midrange is seamless, I rarely "hear" the speaker...how blatantly the yellow cones stands out only accentuates the fact that I don't hear the speakers because the visual attraction never matches any type of sonic display from the system...
Last edited:
It depends on how you understand the way sound moves from the audio driver, when the coil is agitated. If you think (consider) that the push and pull (pistonic) motion of the driver cone pushes and pulls air in and out on its axis, then there's problem. Consider for a moment, how does the sound move at exactly 90 degrees to the coil's (cone's) axis, when the (visible) movement is on axis. along the axis.
In the images you attached above, the ceiling is brought down to the speaker with the balls, inverted cones and such like. The natural obstruction in a room, the ceiling deflects the sound it gets hit with, doubling the angle it get hit with. The same action is happening with the obstructions mounted just above the speaker. With a half ball, or an inverted cone, the sound still hits the walls and the floor, but blocked from going to the ceiling. Most of the deflected sound from these obstructions hit your knees, rather than your ear. The end result is deflected sound from walls and the floor, if there is no furniture in the room. But, those speakers don't do "the vanishing act" as soon as you stand up, as the obstruction is below your ears.
Last edited:
chdsi. Please do NOT quote the entire post just above yours. This forum does not work this way. Your over-quotes have been removed.Ohm I | Legacy Products | Ohm Speakers | Custom Audiophile Speakers for Music & Home Theater
I had these literally decades ago. They were rated for 500 Watts and were semi-omnidirectional. You could be anywhere in the room and still get good imaging. They were not very accurate musically but did have a way to bi-amp the built in subwoofer so they were great party speakers for my early 20's years.
Having had the DIY bug since about the age of 12, I decided I once again could do better. After about 5 years of not doing any of my own designs; I went back to it.
These Ohms could still be out there somewhere; going strong.
I had these literally decades ago. They were rated for 500 Watts and were semi-omnidirectional. You could be anywhere in the room and still get good imaging. They were not very accurate musically but did have a way to bi-amp the built in subwoofer so they were great party speakers for my early 20's years.
Having had the DIY bug since about the age of 12, I decided I once again could do better. After about 5 years of not doing any of my own designs; I went back to it.
These Ohms could still be out there somewhere; going strong.
The Ohm I’s cabinet was a compact, floor standing design of a little over 15” square near the bottom tapering to 13” square at the top (34” above the floor). This allowed it occupy about the same space as a full-sized bookshelf speaker mounted on the appropriate stand. It was quite small for its tremendous output ability.
Most of the cabinet was devoted to the 12” vented subwoofer driver. Subwoofers were all passive in those days or required external electronic crossovers and separate power amplifiers. In fact, we introduced the Ohm I to the consumer market before most people had even heard of a subwoofer. We designed ours to have the option to work with an external powered crossover, or, by means of a switch, to run in parallel with the rest of the system off of the output of a regular 2-channel stereo amp. The 5” diameter vent could produce more bass than any 18” acoustic suspension woofer of the day. With the 32 Hz low frequency cut-off we were aiming for, the vent had to be only 9” long. We designed the woofer to have a natural roll off about 90 Hz so no low-pass crossover was required. The subwoofer driver was connected directly to the amplifier to get the best control and maximum output.
The top part of the cabinet included the woofer, low tweeter and two super-tweeters. This section was also vented to get extra output from the 8” woofer. The vent tuning and high-pass crossover allowed the subwoofer and woofer to mate nearly perfectly from any listening position. This eliminated the placement problems that still plague subwoofer/mains today. The crossover from the woofer to the tweeter is always a problem because the dispersion of the woofer is much narrower at the crossover point than the dispersion of the tweeter. We solved this dilemma by putting them both on top of the cabinet and enjoying and identical 360-degree horizontal dispersion from both (and the subwoofer, too). Because the dispersion at the high end of the super-tweeters also narrows, we installed one on top of the cabinet to mate with the low-tweeter and one on the front to provide the metallic ‘tinkle’ of cymbals, triangles and other metallic percussion instruments. The system was rated for amplifiers up to 1000 watts per channel – about as big as you could get at the time. The Ohm I could really rock!
[IMG]
The Ohm I Does Its Thing…Loudly and Well
When we presented them in a sound-proof room at the 1978 Consumer Electronics Show (CES), the Ohm I demonstration was even louder than the Cerwin-Vega room according to a reviewer walking the show with a Sound Pressure Level (SPL) meter hanging around his neck. A popular demo at our factory was removing the grill, using a bridged Crown DC-300 on each Ohm I and blowing out candles (with smoke-rings) from fifteen feet across the room on the cannon shots in the Telarc 1812 Overture!
Over the years we have developed upgrades for the Ohm Is that can allow them to play deeper and be more reliable (they were not happy with distorting amplifiers – period). They were a great value when introduced and they’re still a bargain when you find used ones available. We can fix or upgrade everything (except the cabinets) so you can restore to the throne “The King of the Classics” and enjoy your music both LOUD and accurately reproduced – and, of course, live happily ever after
I found this write up on "AudioKarma.org"
Most of the cabinet was devoted to the 12” vented subwoofer driver. Subwoofers were all passive in those days or required external electronic crossovers and separate power amplifiers. In fact, we introduced the Ohm I to the consumer market before most people had even heard of a subwoofer. We designed ours to have the option to work with an external powered crossover, or, by means of a switch, to run in parallel with the rest of the system off of the output of a regular 2-channel stereo amp. The 5” diameter vent could produce more bass than any 18” acoustic suspension woofer of the day. With the 32 Hz low frequency cut-off we were aiming for, the vent had to be only 9” long. We designed the woofer to have a natural roll off about 90 Hz so no low-pass crossover was required. The subwoofer driver was connected directly to the amplifier to get the best control and maximum output.
The top part of the cabinet included the woofer, low tweeter and two super-tweeters. This section was also vented to get extra output from the 8” woofer. The vent tuning and high-pass crossover allowed the subwoofer and woofer to mate nearly perfectly from any listening position. This eliminated the placement problems that still plague subwoofer/mains today. The crossover from the woofer to the tweeter is always a problem because the dispersion of the woofer is much narrower at the crossover point than the dispersion of the tweeter. We solved this dilemma by putting them both on top of the cabinet and enjoying and identical 360-degree horizontal dispersion from both (and the subwoofer, too). Because the dispersion at the high end of the super-tweeters also narrows, we installed one on top of the cabinet to mate with the low-tweeter and one on the front to provide the metallic ‘tinkle’ of cymbals, triangles and other metallic percussion instruments. The system was rated for amplifiers up to 1000 watts per channel – about as big as you could get at the time. The Ohm I could really rock!
[IMG]
The Ohm I Does Its Thing…Loudly and Well
When we presented them in a sound-proof room at the 1978 Consumer Electronics Show (CES), the Ohm I demonstration was even louder than the Cerwin-Vega room according to a reviewer walking the show with a Sound Pressure Level (SPL) meter hanging around his neck. A popular demo at our factory was removing the grill, using a bridged Crown DC-300 on each Ohm I and blowing out candles (with smoke-rings) from fifteen feet across the room on the cannon shots in the Telarc 1812 Overture!
Over the years we have developed upgrades for the Ohm Is that can allow them to play deeper and be more reliable (they were not happy with distorting amplifiers – period). They were a great value when introduced and they’re still a bargain when you find used ones available. We can fix or upgrade everything (except the cabinets) so you can restore to the throne “The King of the Classics” and enjoy your music both LOUD and accurately reproduced – and, of course, live happily ever after
I found this write up on "AudioKarma.org"
It is interesting to hear the room enveloping music, when I sit at 90 degrees to the plane of the speakers. The speakers are along the long wall, and I sit looking at the wall perpendicular to that wall, left or right, one ear further than the other from the line of sound source -- 2 speakers up-firing. As though there's no sound source.
I tend to agree. While OP is finding ways to satisfy situations, the drawing of conclusions is being stretched.
Eg, post 47 making assumptions about directivity without somehow verifying this.
Eg, post 44 not establishing what it is about these speakers and whether there are other ways to work through this.
Swedish designer Carlsson has some fame too, starting in 50's monophonic sound...
History of the Carlsson loudpeakers - CarlssonPlanet
I have a pair of "ortho-acoustic" Sonab OA-14 at my summer cabin.
""LISTENING IMPRESSIONS
The OA-14 is a two-way floorstanding speaker designed to stand with its back directly against the wall. It reproduces the classic Carlsson-sound, integrated and relaxed and has the same ability to remove the walls from listeningroom as the rest of the speakers from the seventies. "
History of the Carlsson loudpeakers - CarlssonPlanet
I have a pair of "ortho-acoustic" Sonab OA-14 at my summer cabin.
""LISTENING IMPRESSIONS
The OA-14 is a two-way floorstanding speaker designed to stand with its back directly against the wall. It reproduces the classic Carlsson-sound, integrated and relaxed and has the same ability to remove the walls from listeningroom as the rest of the speakers from the seventies. "
Last edited:
Its all about Geometry and Physics.
Place a speaker driver in a tube, somewhere inside it, place a funnel on top of the tube, the kitchen type, bottom into the funnel, block the bottom of the tube below the speaker, stuff that part, if you want, listen at 90 degrees of the plane of the funnel, you still hear the sound/music coming out of it. Fix the funnel other way, bottom up. you hear the sound at 90 degrees, somewhat higher sound.
Sound doesn't bend freely in air, it deflects when hit on an obstruction, some of its energy taken away. The to and fro movement (pistonic action) should send the sound one way along its axis, but it goes everywhere in a sphere, from the front and the back. The cone is just an amplifier of the sound, not just because it is a cone. The cone is one of the stiffest geometrical figures, so it is used for that amplification. But, sound doesn't bend freely in air without any obstruction, so for the sound to go perpendicular to the pistonic action on the plane of the speaker level, something else has to vibrate.
The electromagnetic coil makes the sound, so it is called a voice coil. Take a coil and connect it to a sound source, bring a magnet near the coil, the coil will give out music, in free air. Paste that coil onto flat piece of paper, hold the paper, bring the permanent magnet near it, the paper would become a speaker, with sound amplified. Then, turn that paper into a cone, the sound amplification is larger. The paper vibrates with the coil.
We, who have normal living rooms, without all kinds of sound absorbing materials on the walls and the ceiling, have to get used to the sound from the speakers reflected from all those obstructions. The reflected sound is more than the sound from the speaker. So, its best to use the surrounding obstructions for the benefit of the listener -- the back wall, side walls, and the ceiling. Better if they are solid walls, not resonating ones.
In those omni-directional speakers up-firing with inverted cones, half spheres and such like over the speakers, the ceiling is brought down just above the speakers. Depending on the type of the geometrical figure over the speaker, sound is deflected at angles below 90 degrees. At least that's the idea. Still the sound gets deflected from the walls and the floor and other obstructions. Interestingly, sound can be heard along the plane of the speaker too, without getting hit on the obstruction.
So, I found, by chance, that the speakers pointed up to ceiling gives room filling sound, making the speakers vanish. Placing the speakers flush to the wall made the wall vanish from the "sound stage," giving me more space than the room really is. Of course, I don't have a cluttered room, thanks to my wife.
(Attached is one up-firing speaker near the corner.)
Place a speaker driver in a tube, somewhere inside it, place a funnel on top of the tube, the kitchen type, bottom into the funnel, block the bottom of the tube below the speaker, stuff that part, if you want, listen at 90 degrees of the plane of the funnel, you still hear the sound/music coming out of it. Fix the funnel other way, bottom up. you hear the sound at 90 degrees, somewhat higher sound.
Sound doesn't bend freely in air, it deflects when hit on an obstruction, some of its energy taken away. The to and fro movement (pistonic action) should send the sound one way along its axis, but it goes everywhere in a sphere, from the front and the back. The cone is just an amplifier of the sound, not just because it is a cone. The cone is one of the stiffest geometrical figures, so it is used for that amplification. But, sound doesn't bend freely in air without any obstruction, so for the sound to go perpendicular to the pistonic action on the plane of the speaker level, something else has to vibrate.
The electromagnetic coil makes the sound, so it is called a voice coil. Take a coil and connect it to a sound source, bring a magnet near the coil, the coil will give out music, in free air. Paste that coil onto flat piece of paper, hold the paper, bring the permanent magnet near it, the paper would become a speaker, with sound amplified. Then, turn that paper into a cone, the sound amplification is larger. The paper vibrates with the coil.
We, who have normal living rooms, without all kinds of sound absorbing materials on the walls and the ceiling, have to get used to the sound from the speakers reflected from all those obstructions. The reflected sound is more than the sound from the speaker. So, its best to use the surrounding obstructions for the benefit of the listener -- the back wall, side walls, and the ceiling. Better if they are solid walls, not resonating ones.
In those omni-directional speakers up-firing with inverted cones, half spheres and such like over the speakers, the ceiling is brought down just above the speakers. Depending on the type of the geometrical figure over the speaker, sound is deflected at angles below 90 degrees. At least that's the idea. Still the sound gets deflected from the walls and the floor and other obstructions. Interestingly, sound can be heard along the plane of the speaker too, without getting hit on the obstruction.
So, I found, by chance, that the speakers pointed up to ceiling gives room filling sound, making the speakers vanish. Placing the speakers flush to the wall made the wall vanish from the "sound stage," giving me more space than the room really is. Of course, I don't have a cluttered room, thanks to my wife.
(Attached is one up-firing speaker near the corner.)
Attachments
Last edited:
I've been reading Carlsson's thoughts.
And, I am now reading Winslow Burhoe's thinking.
Last edited:
When you go to a concert, the musical ensemble is on a stage and their instruments are above your ears. The music comes at you always from above, that is, if you are not sitting in the balcony. The music is coming at you from far and above. That's exactly what I am hearing, music coming at me, bit above my head and further than the wall. Even, if I turn 90 degrees to the wall, I still hear the music effect unchanged. That feeling stays, even if I turn my back and look the other way. (I have a swivel office chair at my desk.)
By the way, Herbert Pohler had also built omnis in the 70s, woofer up-firing, tweeter looking forward, in some speakers at an angle.
By the way, Herbert Pohler had also built omnis in the 70s, woofer up-firing, tweeter looking forward, in some speakers at an angle.
We hear sound from where the first wavefront arrives. All reflections increase the perceived loudness, but not direction, even when the direct sound is down to 20dB below the reflected.
You can try it out, putting in a mono signal some delay 0.3ms (10cm) in one channel and see how the balance shifts. Now turn the balance pot to the delayed side until it is again in the middle, you see?
You can try it out, putting in a mono signal some delay 0.3ms (10cm) in one channel and see how the balance shifts. Now turn the balance pot to the delayed side until it is again in the middle, you see?
Last edited:
Yes, we must differentiate between these various old "theories" and even measurements of sound radiation/distribution in a room from modern psychoacoustic research.
For the latter, here is some good info Griesinger's Seach Engine David Griesinger davidgriesinger.com - search and find with search engine web site LEXICON LARES room acoustics - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin and his homepage www.davidgriesinger.com (seems to be out of order today)
And of course Toole https://audioroundtable.com/misc/Loudspeakers_and_Rooms.pdf
For the latter, here is some good info Griesinger's Seach Engine David Griesinger davidgriesinger.com - search and find with search engine web site LEXICON LARES room acoustics - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin and his homepage www.davidgriesinger.com (seems to be out of order today)
And of course Toole https://audioroundtable.com/misc/Loudspeakers_and_Rooms.pdf
Most interesting fact is that the music from the speakers are not hurtling at me, as it was when they were facing me from the long wall. Now, the music is just there, happening in space. The room is immersed in music. There's no need to sit in the middle area and keep my head parallel to the long wall. What a relief!
There's no need to sit in the middle area and keep my head parallel to the long wall. What a relief!- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.