Hi all...and Spunk...
Spunk, you are very tough....and good...I will applaud you for this
Nice choices....funny I was about to suggest excactly the same, well maybe with Vifa DX Dome (no attennuation)....but as said you have made a very wise choice....and as Variac point out, we have been very close to this before "blueWonder" popped up...things got messed up.....you have picked up at excactly the right place..... and most important, you have made your own choice, and nailed it spot on...... I am utterly impressed
Last I calculated on this 18" PA (sub)wooofer....I found about 300 liter with 300cm2 port....gives 30hz...nice figures I think...you will get loads of deep bass
If you havent bought hornflare for tweeter, I would consider a 10" waveguide.....it would couple better to 12" mid.....and is supposed to sound better too....good widerange dispersion ?
I am with you on this....crossover .....no problem 😎
Spunk, you are very tough....and good...I will applaud you for this
Nice choices....funny I was about to suggest excactly the same, well maybe with Vifa DX Dome (no attennuation)....but as said you have made a very wise choice....and as Variac point out, we have been very close to this before "blueWonder" popped up...things got messed up.....you have picked up at excactly the right place..... and most important, you have made your own choice, and nailed it spot on...... I am utterly impressed
Last I calculated on this 18" PA (sub)wooofer....I found about 300 liter with 300cm2 port....gives 30hz...nice figures I think...you will get loads of deep bass
If you havent bought hornflare for tweeter, I would consider a 10" waveguide.....it would couple better to 12" mid.....and is supposed to sound better too....good widerange dispersion ?
I am with you on this....crossover .....no problem 😎
Done some preliminary calculation....others might do better..
18"....about 250 liter....200cm2 port.....vas is in cubic feet, not sure about that
12"....closed box 120 liter....quite much....and goes very low actually...it will need highpass
I have seen Jantzen crossover components at PE...very nice
18"....about 250 liter....200cm2 port.....vas is in cubic feet, not sure about that
12"....closed box 120 liter....quite much....and goes very low actually...it will need highpass
I have seen Jantzen crossover components at PE...very nice
Rob sorry I didn't catch your post. A lot of good stuff has been ignored here , so good that it is brought up again. I posted the link as good information fo about any system of this sort, not to say he should try to get these drivers. There is a lot to learn about any similar system..
Tinitus- why do you need such a large waveguide if the tweeter is crossed over at a point that a 6" would do? Shouldn't we decide on a logical crossover point first? OR is there some kind of evidence that a bigger waveguide is better no matter the frequency? A bigger waveguide separates the drivers more and puts the horn driver back more- possibly time-aligning the drivers but maybe too far? Maybe we can find out. Does it also possibly have a more of the horn sound we are trying to get away from? IT sounds like you have heard from some people that have tried this?
I don't know, I admit that, and Punkr will like it bigger I'm sure, and it would allow him to experiment with lower crosssover points but at a cost? Again I don't know.
Tinitus- why do you need such a large waveguide if the tweeter is crossed over at a point that a 6" would do? Shouldn't we decide on a logical crossover point first? OR is there some kind of evidence that a bigger waveguide is better no matter the frequency? A bigger waveguide separates the drivers more and puts the horn driver back more- possibly time-aligning the drivers but maybe too far? Maybe we can find out. Does it also possibly have a more of the horn sound we are trying to get away from? IT sounds like you have heard from some people that have tried this?
I don't know, I admit that, and Punkr will like it bigger I'm sure, and it would allow him to experiment with lower crosssover points but at a cost? Again I don't know.
I think crossover point wont vary that much....you cant go below 2khz with the tweeter....and above 3khz wont be wise either
A number of serious people have reported good things about the use of waveguide....with dome tweeters that is....it is supposed to give good low end support so that coupling to mids are good
It dont have the horn loading that often affects certain specific frequencies...you may say its more homogene
PE actually writes also that waveguides have good sound qualities because they influence it very little
You are right that it will mean a bit more distance between mid and tweeter centres....it would mean something in a hifi system with a small mid....here we have a 12"....and a horn....distance will be there allready.....and as a wave guide couples well to mid driver it actually may compensate for some of the distance...
Troels has shown how to cut the waveguide to get mid and tweeter closer together....if you think its really important.....mind you this is a high power speaker and not highend hifi....but certainly its good to get the most of it
But its your call....and if Spunk really insist on a hornflare so be it....but nice big ones easily gets expencive
It would be possible to cross higher....but I dont think its such a good idea
Mind you...its a good thing to support the tweeter below crossover point....will give a much smoother rolloff....important to phase issues
12LTD is at 95db in the important lower mid....and the 18" will be likewise....so I think we will have to deal with the rise and bit of roughness from 1khz in the crossover
Lower crossover point...I would say around 250hz....I would like 12LTD to run loose without any "C"....but I think it goes too deep....so I think we will have to cut it 6db with 68uf...estimated
A number of serious people have reported good things about the use of waveguide....with dome tweeters that is....it is supposed to give good low end support so that coupling to mids are good
It dont have the horn loading that often affects certain specific frequencies...you may say its more homogene
PE actually writes also that waveguides have good sound qualities because they influence it very little
You are right that it will mean a bit more distance between mid and tweeter centres....it would mean something in a hifi system with a small mid....here we have a 12"....and a horn....distance will be there allready.....and as a wave guide couples well to mid driver it actually may compensate for some of the distance...
Troels has shown how to cut the waveguide to get mid and tweeter closer together....if you think its really important.....mind you this is a high power speaker and not highend hifi....but certainly its good to get the most of it
But its your call....and if Spunk really insist on a hornflare so be it....but nice big ones easily gets expencive
It would be possible to cross higher....but I dont think its such a good idea
Mind you...its a good thing to support the tweeter below crossover point....will give a much smoother rolloff....important to phase issues
12LTD is at 95db in the important lower mid....and the 18" will be likewise....so I think we will have to deal with the rise and bit of roughness from 1khz in the crossover
Lower crossover point...I would say around 250hz....I would like 12LTD to run loose without any "C"....but I think it goes too deep....so I think we will have to cut it 6db with 68uf...estimated
Well, you didn't read my comment carefully. I only asked whether we needed as big a waveguide as you are proposing. The "blue" speaker has a waveguide,not a horn. It is elliptical in shape but a waveguide. I was asking if a smaller diameter waveguide than what you are proposing would be just as good. No one was argueing against a wave guide. It was the diameter I was questioning.
Could use smaller waveguide...but if you read about "the blue..."....the used waveguide is small and has no lowend support
with its narrow and unlinear passband
The bigger the flatter, equals less horneffect
with its narrow and unlinear passband
The bigger the flatter, equals less horneffect
Damm....its tricky....seems 1" tweeter rolls of the highs too much without the right hornflare........would like that 94db dome now
Maybe this horn will do the trick
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-308
Maybe this horn will do the trick
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-308
OK the "Blue" speaker crosses over at 2200, which is considered pretty low for PA's I believe. The conventional idea is to handle most of the bandwidth with the midrange because horn tweeters have a lot of resonances and the "honky" horn sound.
Well, I think it is the waveguide which allows the tweeter to be used lower, and while our 12 mid does go quite high, it gets pretty wild looking up there. BUT the 12 does go low, so we should use a lower crossover to the 18" I'd say. Maybe 200hz? If we went down to 100 then the mid would add the "bump" and the 18 could be tuned lower and flatter. Those would be my two choices.
Panoman: since you promoted the 12" as being similar to the Hammer hi fi speaker can you scare up the crossover for the Hammer? It would be especially interesting to see how it handles the rising response of that driver...
(Punk- there is a hifi speaker box named the "hammer" which uses the 12" driver pano is recommending. It is a completely diffferent thing than the Hammer drivers recomended for the "Blue" so don't worry about the Hammer name)
We can let Punkrokr decide on the waveguide size. Seriously I have no objection to an 8" and it will look really impressive. Obiously the smaller eliptical one works too.
Punkrokr: That Behringer electronic crossover is worth considering. IT gives you a lot of control- you can try different crossover points.
The problem is you will need a total of 6 channels off amplification
Usually that would mean 3 stereo amps. but the mid and high amps can be pretty low powered. Sure you can't brag about 1000 watts, but you probably would actually save money, and a stack of three amps is pretty impressive!!
Well, I think it is the waveguide which allows the tweeter to be used lower, and while our 12 mid does go quite high, it gets pretty wild looking up there. BUT the 12 does go low, so we should use a lower crossover to the 18" I'd say. Maybe 200hz? If we went down to 100 then the mid would add the "bump" and the 18 could be tuned lower and flatter. Those would be my two choices.
Panoman: since you promoted the 12" as being similar to the Hammer hi fi speaker can you scare up the crossover for the Hammer? It would be especially interesting to see how it handles the rising response of that driver...
(Punk- there is a hifi speaker box named the "hammer" which uses the 12" driver pano is recommending. It is a completely diffferent thing than the Hammer drivers recomended for the "Blue" so don't worry about the Hammer name)
We can let Punkrokr decide on the waveguide size. Seriously I have no objection to an 8" and it will look really impressive. Obiously the smaller eliptical one works too.
Punkrokr: That Behringer electronic crossover is worth considering. IT gives you a lot of control- you can try different crossover points.
The problem is you will need a total of 6 channels off amplification
Usually that would mean 3 stereo amps. but the mid and high amps can be pretty low powered. Sure you can't brag about 1000 watts, but you probably would actually save money, and a stack of three amps is pretty impressive!!
Hmm...I think I will go on "standby"
Let me say it this way...to get the monsterbass Punk wants....one way is to have less mid/top....this is not what happens here....I think there will be an important loss of energy in the important midbass
Thinking of a 2.5 way with two 12LTD
Let me say it this way...to get the monsterbass Punk wants....one way is to have less mid/top....this is not what happens here....I think there will be an important loss of energy in the important midbass
Thinking of a 2.5 way with two 12LTD
Two 12LTD and the 1" Selenium in a 2.5-way will be very powerfull on its own....and might have nicer sound with its possible simplicity
If I recal my calculation correct it will be so even in a closed box
Spunk could then add a real powersub later on, when money is better
Sorry, ofcourse I mean 12 LTA
If I recal my calculation correct it will be so even in a closed box
Spunk could then add a real powersub later on, when money is better
Sorry, ofcourse I mean 12 LTA
Shootz! I stay away for almost a day and see what happens!!
Anyway, yeah. What variac said a few pages ago in posts #255 & 257. He's smart, listen to him.
I really like the driver that Punkrokr picked out. That's going to be a sweet system. I have never use that Dayton 18, but it seems good. You guys already know how I feel about the Beta 12LTA. 😉 I have a pair of the Selenium 210 drivers in my system now. Very nice.
So there you go. From this point with this very good driver selection, we can design a killer system.
I agree that active crossover for the low to mid is the only way to go. As stated earlier, he can even start with a car sound crossover. They are a bit limited in frequency selection, but they are not expensive and they have bass boost.
Nice choice Punkrokr! You make a Tar Heel proud. (but you're probably a state fan).
Anyway, yeah. What variac said a few pages ago in posts #255 & 257. He's smart, listen to him.
I really like the driver that Punkrokr picked out. That's going to be a sweet system. I have never use that Dayton 18, but it seems good. You guys already know how I feel about the Beta 12LTA. 😉 I have a pair of the Selenium 210 drivers in my system now. Very nice.
So there you go. From this point with this very good driver selection, we can design a killer system.
I agree that active crossover for the low to mid is the only way to go. As stated earlier, he can even start with a car sound crossover. They are a bit limited in frequency selection, but they are not expensive and they have bass boost.
Nice choice Punkrokr! You make a Tar Heel proud. (but you're probably a state fan).
I seem to be the only one who prefer passive around 500hz.....would work with a single 12LTA.....and it would like it.....and mean an owerall higher SPL....more power
Lets not make this harder than neccesary
Lets not make this harder than neccesary
OK, here's what the Blue Meany designer says about the waveguide. He says that he tried bigger and smaller and this is what works best for HiFi-like sound.
"I tested many waveguides and horns as part of the design process before settling on the Dayton H07E. This waveguide provided minimal disturbance of the natural response of the driver, while providing good loading down to 2 kHz. Smaller horns could not provide this low-end loading, while the larger horns tended to disrupt the high-frequency response. This waveguide seems to be an excellent choice for applications where high-fidelity is paramount over high-sensitivity."
Tinitus, you wanted a big waveguide then changed your mind to say it won't work well. Let's go with a recomendation that we know works, what Punkrokr specified. After all, None of us have tried the other waveguides so we don't know. I think the big decision was to go with a waveguide instead of a horn.
So, let's assume again that we are using the components Punkr has chosen. If they are even reasonable we should accept them just because they are his choice, and in this case, they are more than reasonable.
Now as to the midrange, it seems that we should take advantage of the larger mid driver. A 12" should be able to be crossed lower than an 8" or what is the point? The Blue speaker crosses over fine with the 8" at 400. That means that the 12" should be able to cross lower, certainly not higher, right? I think we have to take Pano's word that it sounds good. Actually we don't have to. A very similar driver is used in the Hammer speaker which certainly is very close to HiFi or solidly hifi, depending on who you talk to. As he said, the only difference appears to be the cone material and Ithink Iremember the coil former was a bit different.
Pano, can you find the Hammer crossover? I suspect that it deals with the speakers rising response and maybe smooths it out, so we really need it.
"I tested many waveguides and horns as part of the design process before settling on the Dayton H07E. This waveguide provided minimal disturbance of the natural response of the driver, while providing good loading down to 2 kHz. Smaller horns could not provide this low-end loading, while the larger horns tended to disrupt the high-frequency response. This waveguide seems to be an excellent choice for applications where high-fidelity is paramount over high-sensitivity."
Tinitus, you wanted a big waveguide then changed your mind to say it won't work well. Let's go with a recomendation that we know works, what Punkrokr specified. After all, None of us have tried the other waveguides so we don't know. I think the big decision was to go with a waveguide instead of a horn.
So, let's assume again that we are using the components Punkr has chosen. If they are even reasonable we should accept them just because they are his choice, and in this case, they are more than reasonable.
Now as to the midrange, it seems that we should take advantage of the larger mid driver. A 12" should be able to be crossed lower than an 8" or what is the point? The Blue speaker crosses over fine with the 8" at 400. That means that the 12" should be able to cross lower, certainly not higher, right? I think we have to take Pano's word that it sounds good. Actually we don't have to. A very similar driver is used in the Hammer speaker which certainly is very close to HiFi or solidly hifi, depending on who you talk to. As he said, the only difference appears to be the cone material and Ithink Iremember the coil former was a bit different.
Pano, can you find the Hammer crossover? I suspect that it deals with the speakers rising response and maybe smooths it out, so we really need it.
OK, Punkrokr,
Have you downloaded the software yet?
http://www.linearteam.dk/
You say you want to say you designed the speakers. You need this program to do so. Are you listening? we've mentioned this before!
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I think active crossover as was mentioned :
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-668
MIGHT be a good way to go. You can play around adjusting it until you get the sound you want. Cool knobs! One box should handle both speakers, and is real cheap. Maybe people will suggest good amps that are mid powered but pretty cheap and good. Maybe you have some old receivers or power amps? Used can be good too. Check Craigs's List or similar online want ads close to where you live for something like Adcom or Hafler power amps.
The other option is passive crossovers and you would only need one amp, but a lot more powerfull, and not adjustable.
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Speakers like this are used with a band are NOT to run your electric bass through through. They are for the vocals and keyboard maybe
Stuff like that...
They also should work well for DJ use..
Have you downloaded the software yet?
http://www.linearteam.dk/
You say you want to say you designed the speakers. You need this program to do so. Are you listening? we've mentioned this before!
======
I think active crossover as was mentioned :
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-668
MIGHT be a good way to go. You can play around adjusting it until you get the sound you want. Cool knobs! One box should handle both speakers, and is real cheap. Maybe people will suggest good amps that are mid powered but pretty cheap and good. Maybe you have some old receivers or power amps? Used can be good too. Check Craigs's List or similar online want ads close to where you live for something like Adcom or Hafler power amps.
The other option is passive crossovers and you would only need one amp, but a lot more powerfull, and not adjustable.
=======
Speakers like this are used with a band are NOT to run your electric bass through through. They are for the vocals and keyboard maybe
Stuff like that...
They also should work well for DJ use..
Tinitus - you keep leaving it to us - then coming back! Can't make up your mind? 😉
Here is the Hammer Dynamic crossover:
What interests us of course is the trap, it's meant to tame the 8 KHz breakup mode of the driver. The crossover itself is very simple, just a 0.24mH coil. That's like a 1st order filter at ~5500 Hz. Gives a gentle roll off on top.
That is very similar to the filter I have between my Tang Band W6-789s and the same Selenium 210 on a BBC horn. I will try some crossover modeling witht the Beta 12 LTA and the 210 to see what happens. But we don't really know the response of that driver on that waveguide. Might be able to estimate it, tho.
The Blue Wonder uses a 2.2Khz point between the 8" and the horn. As Darren states, he started higher, then came down to 2.5K because he liked the sound.
The crossover point between the 18" and the 12" is open to question. I was thinking about 500Hz, like Tinitus. Would not want to go much higher than about 800. It's going to be hard to say. The Beta 12 LTA will play down to about 80 Hz in a small sealed box. But punkrokr may want to keep more of that low end energy in the 18, for simple reasons of volume and power.
An active crossover will allow him to easily experiment with levels and crossover points. We can give him a range to start with, but then he will have to find what works best for him, his speakers and his music. It shouldn't be too hard to do.
Here is the Hammer Dynamic crossover:
What interests us of course is the trap, it's meant to tame the 8 KHz breakup mode of the driver. The crossover itself is very simple, just a 0.24mH coil. That's like a 1st order filter at ~5500 Hz. Gives a gentle roll off on top.
That is very similar to the filter I have between my Tang Band W6-789s and the same Selenium 210 on a BBC horn. I will try some crossover modeling witht the Beta 12 LTA and the 210 to see what happens. But we don't really know the response of that driver on that waveguide. Might be able to estimate it, tho.
The Blue Wonder uses a 2.2Khz point between the 8" and the horn. As Darren states, he started higher, then came down to 2.5K because he liked the sound.
The crossover point between the 18" and the 12" is open to question. I was thinking about 500Hz, like Tinitus. Would not want to go much higher than about 800. It's going to be hard to say. The Beta 12 LTA will play down to about 80 Hz in a small sealed box. But punkrokr may want to keep more of that low end energy in the 18, for simple reasons of volume and power.
An active crossover will allow him to easily experiment with levels and crossover points. We can give him a range to start with, but then he will have to find what works best for him, his speakers and his music. It shouldn't be too hard to do.
Variac said:
Variac is pulling out the big guns!
That's a very nice crossover, but more than he needs, at least to start. This Behringer 2 way would be just fine.
Even something like this car sound crossover could do in a pinch. The bass boost might come in handy. Has its limitations, tho.
Or any of the older Behringer Super-X crossovers. There are some sweet deals on eBay all the time. But watch out for high shipping costs!
OK, First we have the Beta LTA with the whizzer cone
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-409s.pdf
Here's the Beta 12-A-2 which is the same speaker without the whizzer cone:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-408s.pdf
This is what tinitus was talking about when he suggested cutting off the whizzer. He prob didn't know that you can buy it that way
Its quite obvious that they are the same big cone because to about 2500 the response curves are the same. This 12" without the whizzer rolls off all by itself at about 12dB per octave at around 2500- exactly where we would want to cut the tweeter! Quite possibly if this mid were used it wouldn't require a low pass crossover at all between it and the tweeter. We slap a high pass filter on the tweeter and its done!
I had great success using my WPU1505 this way - it also had a very steep natural roll-off but around 3000. Sounded really good with only a second order crossover on the tweeter and nothing on the woofer.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-409s.pdf
Here's the Beta 12-A-2 which is the same speaker without the whizzer cone:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-408s.pdf
This is what tinitus was talking about when he suggested cutting off the whizzer. He prob didn't know that you can buy it that way
Its quite obvious that they are the same big cone because to about 2500 the response curves are the same. This 12" without the whizzer rolls off all by itself at about 12dB per octave at around 2500- exactly where we would want to cut the tweeter! Quite possibly if this mid were used it wouldn't require a low pass crossover at all between it and the tweeter. We slap a high pass filter on the tweeter and its done!
I had great success using my WPU1505 this way - it also had a very steep natural roll-off but around 3000. Sounded really good with only a second order crossover on the tweeter and nothing on the woofer.
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