I got a start on a filter for the Eminence compression drive and the little wave guide. See below:
This is simple 2nd order high pass with C=1.5Uf L=0.37mH. There is an L-Pad (2.4 & 20 ohms) to bring it down to the 12".
The filter assumes that the wave guide does not alter the measured FR of the driver much (as stated in the Blue Wonder project.) Of course the worry is that peak at the top inherent in this driver. When we tilt the response up, the peak looks even worse. I don't know if it will be a problem, or if there is a fix. TBD.
FWIW, the Selenium D210 looks a little smoother, flatter, so may take less work to get sounding good.
About the Beta 12 in a sealed box. I don't have any good way to figure out cone excursion. Does anyone here?
This is simple 2nd order high pass with C=1.5Uf L=0.37mH. There is an L-Pad (2.4 & 20 ohms) to bring it down to the 12".
The filter assumes that the wave guide does not alter the measured FR of the driver much (as stated in the Blue Wonder project.) Of course the worry is that peak at the top inherent in this driver. When we tilt the response up, the peak looks even worse. I don't know if it will be a problem, or if there is a fix. TBD.
FWIW, the Selenium D210 looks a little smoother, flatter, so may take less work to get sounding good.
About the Beta 12 in a sealed box. I don't have any good way to figure out cone excursion. Does anyone here?
Attachments
Return of the wicked....BETA 8A....
About excursion.....I understood you would cross active at 200hz....then you wont have any cone excursion....or almost nothing....VIBRATIONS
Are you quite sure it will beat "Blue..."
Well I really like looking at THIS driver....will be good down to 50hz....but it would take the last out of Punk....but it would be easier just to use two of them = 100db.....damm, sorry boys, cant help it, Im in love with this driver
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-510&ctab=2#Tabs
About excursion.....I understood you would cross active at 200hz....then you wont have any cone excursion....or almost nothing....VIBRATIONS
Are you quite sure it will beat "Blue..."
Well I really like looking at THIS driver....will be good down to 50hz....but it would take the last out of Punk....but it would be easier just to use two of them = 100db.....damm, sorry boys, cant help it, Im in love with this driver
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-510&ctab=2#Tabs
Umm, I can't get WinUSD to work on my pc but I'll try and download it agian.
I'm curious about Cal's speakers.
How do you make something so big and put such small amounts of power (compared to what other systems of that caliber are driven at) and still get the results that Cal gets?
I think like he said it's mainly in the cabinet design, the crossovers, and the amp that you use.
Umm the bass cabinets.....
Since I'm using these Dayton 18" woofers mashaeffer mentioned a while back in like page 5 or 6 can I go with what he suggested?
Each woofer in it's own 9ft^3 cabinet with two 4 inch diameter ports 5.8 inches long which he said would give me a cabinet tuned around 32Hz
I'm curious about Cal's speakers.
How do you make something so big and put such small amounts of power (compared to what other systems of that caliber are driven at) and still get the results that Cal gets?
I think like he said it's mainly in the cabinet design, the crossovers, and the amp that you use.
Umm the bass cabinets.....
Since I'm using these Dayton 18" woofers mashaeffer mentioned a while back in like page 5 or 6 can I go with what he suggested?
Each woofer in it's own 9ft^3 cabinet with two 4 inch diameter ports 5.8 inches long which he said would give me a cabinet tuned around 32Hz
Variac, I take it you mean HM17-25....I know no other than what they write at PE....and I think it looks good
The smallest round 6" waveguide might work
I think there is only need for topend support....lowend support is apparently not needed.......and its obvious you cant have both....the trick is to make it linear.....would take some experiments to get perfect
Looking at 1" 210 Selenium.....without lense it rises below 2khz....and begins to fall off above 7.5khz....and rapidly above 10khz
I would say there is only need for support from 7khz and up.....so maybe the trick could be to use a rather small horn with high cut off frequency....and maybe loose some of lowend sensitivity....but its quite clear, I am only guessing about this
If I get serious I may come up with values on crossover I have shown...and offcourse additional components to make it standard 3-way
EDIT; seems mentioned horns are as small as it gets
The smallest round 6" waveguide might work
I think there is only need for topend support....lowend support is apparently not needed.......and its obvious you cant have both....the trick is to make it linear.....would take some experiments to get perfect
Looking at 1" 210 Selenium.....without lense it rises below 2khz....and begins to fall off above 7.5khz....and rapidly above 10khz
I would say there is only need for support from 7khz and up.....so maybe the trick could be to use a rather small horn with high cut off frequency....and maybe loose some of lowend sensitivity....but its quite clear, I am only guessing about this
If I get serious I may come up with values on crossover I have shown...and offcourse additional components to make it standard 3-way
EDIT; seems mentioned horns are as small as it gets
Yes, but small corrections are better...
Trouble is that just below 2khz you hit several impedance resonance peaks...will affect filter slope
Sorry, wrong...theres only one at 2khz...rest is from horn....but its there still
Wrong again...2khz ressonance...also from waveguide...I think
So, no problemo I guess
Trouble is that just below 2khz you hit several impedance resonance peaks...will affect filter slope
Sorry, wrong...theres only one at 2khz...rest is from horn....but its there still
Wrong again...2khz ressonance...also from waveguide...I think
So, no problemo I guess
Punkr,
Its in the drivers and cabinet design.
In the design to this point you have the type of drivers required, except that Cal's use 15" drivers.
In fact, now you are getting an idea of how loud your speakers will be.
You are also getting an idea how loud PA systems are when driven by big amps. Pro rigs use amps at least twice the size required to avoid clipping -and usually a lot bigger than that.
The cabinets are like short horns and augment the bass. Horn loaded bass can be quite efficient so you need less power. You can't make the high frequency horns, he wants you to track them down and buy them I guess. I don't know how this fits into you making thenm as you want to.
Since Cal had the audacity to mention this I assume he will now take over and answer all your questions, and help you find plans for the cabinets and the correct crossovers and drivers.
This is the horn I use on my Selenium horn driver:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=270-302
Its in the drivers and cabinet design.
In the design to this point you have the type of drivers required, except that Cal's use 15" drivers.
In fact, now you are getting an idea of how loud your speakers will be.
You are also getting an idea how loud PA systems are when driven by big amps. Pro rigs use amps at least twice the size required to avoid clipping -and usually a lot bigger than that.
The cabinets are like short horns and augment the bass. Horn loaded bass can be quite efficient so you need less power. You can't make the high frequency horns, he wants you to track them down and buy them I guess. I don't know how this fits into you making thenm as you want to.
Since Cal had the audacity to mention this I assume he will now take over and answer all your questions, and help you find plans for the cabinets and the correct crossovers and drivers.
This is the horn I use on my Selenium horn driver:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=270-302
Hi Bob,
To me its not really clear what it is you mean about Cal speaker
It was said they were perfect for this setup...does that mean only bass cabinet...?
Or do you suggest making a complete copy ?
I like that fronthorn on bass
BTW, Variac...I think this A7 needs compleetely different woofer...mind you its a 2-way
To me its not really clear what it is you mean about Cal speaker
It was said they were perfect for this setup...does that mean only bass cabinet...?
Or do you suggest making a complete copy ?
I like that fronthorn on bass
BTW, Variac...I think this A7 needs compleetely different woofer...mind you its a 2-way
Yeah, I just meant an efficient pro driver . Those old Altec 15/16" had response out to 3k I've heard, but Cal will explain all this to Punkrockr -no need for us to butt in!
In my previous post I linked to the horn I use for treble. I think you will approve. I cross the driver at 3k - but t he horn could work down to 1200 I believe - same as your philosophy.
In my previous post I linked to the horn I use for treble. I think you will approve. I cross the driver at 3k - but t he horn could work down to 1200 I believe - same as your philosophy.
Variac said:
And this is the Selenium BBC horn that I use with my D210s. I agree with Variac. Seems to be no need for more treble. I sure doesn't look that way on paper, but it sounds that way. I took off the super tweets.
The only problem I have with this combo is that it is deeper than my little 6.5" woofers and is giving me alignment/phase fits.
Not going to be a problem with the 12" driver as it is as deep as the horns/waveguides.Tinitus, don't worry about those impedance peaks. Once you put attenuating resistors in the circuit, those peaks flatten right out. I had to learn THAT one the hard way. L-Pad = goooood.
Punkrokr. I think you are looking at about 8 cubic feet for you 18" driver box. There may be a better size for the sound you want, we need to work that out.
Variac said:
Huh? Is it? I don't know. I think the horn you use might be better for this application. Just mentioned the small horn 'cause that's what I have.
Still curious about those round wave guides. They look so cool.
Oh, yeah. Power handling on the Beta 12". Crossover anywhere you want , baby! Good to 200 watts all the way down. Crossing at 200Hz or above - no worries at all. That's like 120dB at 1 meter.
I'll post the graph when I get home.
If you both think that horn will work, that good! I like agreement!
Also a shorter horn like that should line up well with the woofer as you point out. While a shorter horn might not support the low horn frequencies below the crossover, that probably isn't necessary , and might create more resonances.
While we all love the idea of the round waveguides, Darren Kuzma the Blue Wonder guy says that they attenuate the highest frequencies, which is certainly not good for these horn drivers, which don't go so high anyway. He says the elliptical waveguide works best and I think it is because it is quite narrow top to bottom - kind of more HORN like. That's why it works better on the high end I think.
Supravox, the high end french driver company sells a waveguide/horn very similar to the Blue waveguide for use with their horn drivers (which no one has ever heard to my knowledge!!) This is another point in their favor. The eliptical waveguide is quite impressive looking - bigger than the horn I believe.
So I think we use:
-The horn you guys like, or
-The Blue eliptical waveguide with a network similar to Kuzma's.
or. maybe:
-a round waveguide if we make a more radical shaping circuit.
Also a shorter horn like that should line up well with the woofer as you point out. While a shorter horn might not support the low horn frequencies below the crossover, that probably isn't necessary , and might create more resonances.
While we all love the idea of the round waveguides, Darren Kuzma the Blue Wonder guy says that they attenuate the highest frequencies, which is certainly not good for these horn drivers, which don't go so high anyway. He says the elliptical waveguide works best and I think it is because it is quite narrow top to bottom - kind of more HORN like. That's why it works better on the high end I think.
Supravox, the high end french driver company sells a waveguide/horn very similar to the Blue waveguide for use with their horn drivers (which no one has ever heard to my knowledge!!) This is another point in their favor. The eliptical waveguide is quite impressive looking - bigger than the horn I believe.
So I think we use:
-The horn you guys like, or
-The Blue eliptical waveguide with a network similar to Kuzma's.
or. maybe:
-a round waveguide if we make a more radical shaping circuit.
I'll third the idea, there is nothing meaner, bigger, and louder than a A7 that still fits into a living room, resale value would be good ect.
Cannot believe that I turned one down recently (the thought of having to build a second one perhaps), mmm where is the phone.
PS anyone know how much and old pair of Altec A4 XO is worth, I have 2 or 3 multicell horns lying around, whats their value now days?
For crossovers.
I'd be best using a passive for the mid-range and tweeters right?
Then I can just add an L-pad.
But I should go active with the woofer, right?
I see it this way because this way I won't need an amp for each driver.
So all I'll need is an amp for the mid and tweeters.
Then I can put a little more into an amp for the woofers, am I along the write lines?
I'd be best using a passive for the mid-range and tweeters right?
Then I can just add an L-pad.
But I should go active with the woofer, right?
I see it this way because this way I won't need an amp for each driver.
So all I'll need is an amp for the mid and tweeters.
Then I can put a little more into an amp for the woofers, am I along the write lines?
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