Well they don't seem to be exactly the same. FS, VAS, QTS are somewhat different.
But I might go for it. Since we have chosen to cross pretty low - 2.5KHz, we don't need the high end of the LTA. No whizzer then. I'll ask around to see if there is a big difference in the two drivers.
Darn! And I had just worked out a crossover with the waveguide tweeter.
We may want to go with the Eminence driver on the waveguide, since we already have a known crossover for it. Should be as good as or better than the Selenium 210.
So some slight changes, but basically the same thing.
But I might go for it. Since we have chosen to cross pretty low - 2.5KHz, we don't need the high end of the LTA. No whizzer then. I'll ask around to see if there is a big difference in the two drivers.
Darn! And I had just worked out a crossover with the waveguide tweeter.
We may want to go with the Eminence driver on the waveguide, since we already have a known crossover for it. Should be as good as or better than the Selenium 210.
So some slight changes, but basically the same thing.
Hi,
Well, its kind of tricky thing about those hornflares, but I definately do not like the one used in "Blue..."...just look at its measured FR...and what he actually writes....as I said I like the look of HM17-25....eventually
Yeah, I have studied ALL(most) of the relevant Eminence driver, but dare not suggest any....not to mess it too much....theres also a nice DELTA 10A with a bit more efficiency, and what looks to be better build quality
Its possible to take away some of the rising FR with a too big inductor and define the crosspoint with a paralel C.....if it doesnt start too low.....but a modest rise will only give a little extra sparckle
You should be able to go down to 1500hz with the 1" tweeter....it will only have less powerhandling.....maybe not good when we know Punk....but 2khz should be no trouble
With a passive 500hz on bass, it may be possible to make a very simple but well behaving 2.5-way, with only lowpass on 12"....and if not, its easy to add a series C on mid....and a paralel C on bass
It would give som extra punch in midbass....we like that dont we...and its my experience that most of the magic in music depends on this area
It may not be advanced highend.....but who cares
Well, its kind of tricky thing about those hornflares, but I definately do not like the one used in "Blue..."...just look at its measured FR...and what he actually writes....as I said I like the look of HM17-25....eventually
Yeah, I have studied ALL(most) of the relevant Eminence driver, but dare not suggest any....not to mess it too much....theres also a nice DELTA 10A with a bit more efficiency, and what looks to be better build quality
Its possible to take away some of the rising FR with a too big inductor and define the crosspoint with a paralel C.....if it doesnt start too low.....but a modest rise will only give a little extra sparckle
You should be able to go down to 1500hz with the 1" tweeter....it will only have less powerhandling.....maybe not good when we know Punk....but 2khz should be no trouble
With a passive 500hz on bass, it may be possible to make a very simple but well behaving 2.5-way, with only lowpass on 12"....and if not, its easy to add a series C on mid....and a paralel C on bass
It would give som extra punch in midbass....we like that dont we...and its my experience that most of the magic in music depends on this area
It may not be advanced highend.....but who cares
My concern is that FR rise on those 12" start very low....but crossing with a big inductor above 1khz will only give a small rise...so might not be any problem....some dips....think I like that DELTA 10A...nothing is perfect, ever...who cares when its loud enough
EDIT, in general a mid with a good topend will have a cone with a nice flat curve
EDIT, in general a mid with a good topend will have a cone with a nice flat curve
Well, the passive crossovers are looking to be reasonably simple at this point, so no need to make that decision yet! The active route will allow you to tune as best you can which gets us off the hook, allows you to use amps of about half the wattage, and would be very cool to demo to your friends. Also: don't change your driver choices please!!
The 12" I mentioned is the same driver as the one you chose but without the whizzer cone which we are all suspecting might not really be needed here. Often less expensive drivers with smaller voice coils sound better in a hi fi way, so I strongly believe that we should keep basically the same 12" driver- just a slight variation of the same thing.
That driver is known to sound good, and you can't just go on frequency response to determine how a driver sounds. Pano is right, the specs are different, but mainly because it doesn't have the weight of the whizzer. I hope he gets some good reports on it. I recall hearing that it was quite good
As far as the tweeter goes, I'm sure many of the lurkers here are now amusedly wondering how we are going to handle the design of the crossover. The fact that we don't all have exactly that tweeter horn driver or the waveguide or measuring equipment makes it pretty hard to do a decent job.
Now that we have the drivers in place I am certainly interested in anty horn driver crossover designs that will address the droop in frequency response while cutting it off at about 2500hz. where the mid driver stops on its own accord. Any input?, guesses?
The 12" I mentioned is the same driver as the one you chose but without the whizzer cone which we are all suspecting might not really be needed here. Often less expensive drivers with smaller voice coils sound better in a hi fi way, so I strongly believe that we should keep basically the same 12" driver- just a slight variation of the same thing.
That driver is known to sound good, and you can't just go on frequency response to determine how a driver sounds. Pano is right, the specs are different, but mainly because it doesn't have the weight of the whizzer. I hope he gets some good reports on it. I recall hearing that it was quite good
As far as the tweeter goes, I'm sure many of the lurkers here are now amusedly wondering how we are going to handle the design of the crossover. The fact that we don't all have exactly that tweeter horn driver or the waveguide or measuring equipment makes it pretty hard to do a decent job.
Now that we have the drivers in place I am certainly interested in anty horn driver crossover designs that will address the droop in frequency response while cutting it off at about 2500hz. where the mid driver stops on its own accord. Any input?, guesses?
Tinitus, please describe your 2 1/2 way idea. I ususally would interpret that to mean 2 woofers, both running without a crosssover at the low end, with with one rolled off earlier than the other, then chopping both off and transitioning to the tweeter that has a high pass.
BUT I assume that you aren't suggesting we run the mid full range!
BUT I assume that you aren't suggesting we run the mid full range!
Story hat on:
Last night it was time to put the big boys away. For those who haven't seen them, here's a pic.
The A4 woofers went into the north building and the A7 cabinets went into the garage. I unhooked the dual Extremis and satellite system from the garage and hooked up just the A7's.
Punkr, if you want bang for the buck and enough volume to knock the feathers off a chicken you ought to consider what I did. The cabinets and horns came from Seattle. (2 hours away) the Selenium drivers came from PE. I now have a garage stereo like none other. I put it at one watt and wanted to plug my ears. I decided to give it a few more.
Nice, very nice.
I then grabbed my ear plugs and let 'er rip. I put about 100 watts into them and had to leave the garage even with my plugs in. The outside of the garage was vibrating so badly I thought one of the windows was going to blow. I had a huge smile on my face until Sonia came out on the deck and gave me the look, you guys know the one. I went back in and turned it down before she called the cops on me.
I had to eat my dinner cold, I didn't get a kiss goodnight and couldn't fall asleep thinking, "you know, I wonder if Punkr were here if he would still have the same dreams of grandeur? I wonder if he realizes what is really possible if you do it right."
All this was done with one 1" tweeter and one 15" woofer in a proper box (rather large) and a nice big horn on top. Passive Xo also. You'll also note it is an expandable system.
After basically giving up on this thread, I wanted to try one more time to suggest that route. It's by far the cheapest, would give you what you needed as far as loud and proud and will have a terrific resale value when you decide to take the next step. I got these about 5 years ago and have no need whatsoever to update.
I can understand the dreams but I am also a practical person. Whatever your final solution, I wish you well, speakers are one heck of a hoddy.
And yes, that is a 20 oz mug of fine ale ithe A4's
Last night it was time to put the big boys away. For those who haven't seen them, here's a pic.
The A4 woofers went into the north building and the A7 cabinets went into the garage. I unhooked the dual Extremis and satellite system from the garage and hooked up just the A7's.
Punkr, if you want bang for the buck and enough volume to knock the feathers off a chicken you ought to consider what I did. The cabinets and horns came from Seattle. (2 hours away) the Selenium drivers came from PE. I now have a garage stereo like none other. I put it at one watt and wanted to plug my ears. I decided to give it a few more.
Nice, very nice.
I then grabbed my ear plugs and let 'er rip. I put about 100 watts into them and had to leave the garage even with my plugs in. The outside of the garage was vibrating so badly I thought one of the windows was going to blow. I had a huge smile on my face until Sonia came out on the deck and gave me the look, you guys know the one. I went back in and turned it down before she called the cops on me.
I had to eat my dinner cold, I didn't get a kiss goodnight and couldn't fall asleep thinking, "you know, I wonder if Punkr were here if he would still have the same dreams of grandeur? I wonder if he realizes what is really possible if you do it right."
All this was done with one 1" tweeter and one 15" woofer in a proper box (rather large) and a nice big horn on top. Passive Xo also. You'll also note it is an expandable system.
After basically giving up on this thread, I wanted to try one more time to suggest that route. It's by far the cheapest, would give you what you needed as far as loud and proud and will have a terrific resale value when you decide to take the next step. I got these about 5 years ago and have no need whatsoever to update.
I can understand the dreams but I am also a practical person. Whatever your final solution, I wish you well, speakers are one heck of a hoddy.
And yes, that is a 20 oz mug of fine ale ithe A4's
Attachments
Nice try Cal
Variac....yes it was my suggestion to try it as a 2.5way like you know it....not my intension from start...just popped up suddenly
The point in using a 2.5way is to get more bass/midbass...keyword might be bafflestep....it might fill in where the 12" is low....worth a try....could easily be changed
The kind of thing you can do with passive....not so easy with aktive
I wont expect those two 12" to sound alike at all
Variac....yes it was my suggestion to try it as a 2.5way like you know it....not my intension from start...just popped up suddenly
The point in using a 2.5way is to get more bass/midbass...keyword might be bafflestep....it might fill in where the 12" is low....worth a try....could easily be changed
The kind of thing you can do with passive....not so easy with aktive
I wont expect those two 12" to sound alike at all
I reread your above post and now understand your idea better. In fact we are both saying pretty much the same thing I think! My question is whether bumpingthe lower mid around 400 hz is where you need the bumping- I would think it should be lower. We need to put the mid driver in a (software) box and study it (including excursion) before discussing it much further....
I proposed an idea of having the 12" crossed very low- say 100 hz, because you could have it overlap the 18" at that point- say have the top end of the 18 crossed over at 120, and the low end of the 12 crossed at 100. This would give a big bump at around 100hz which is what you say you want. As you point out, this might be easier to do passively, although a decent active crossover should allow this. OK a question someone :Will the Behringer that I mentioned allow the 18" to have a higher crossover point than the low point for the 12" ? the question is whether the 12" can handle frequencies that low. The thing to do is design a sealed box for it that allows it to go to this frequency, then to check is the x-max.
The two Beta 12" drivers may have the same magnet, frame, coil assembly and cone material. The one without the whizzer cone has almost exactly the same response curve as the one with the whizzer, it just changes at the point the whizzer would come in. We should use use the 12 up to 2500hz because that is what the high frequency driver prefers and is actually considered a rather low crossover. Also it might work perfectly with the 12" mid running without an upper crossover.
Tinnitus, it is clear you just hate the 12", probably due to its frequency response, and remember I was proposing the 8" BUT lets accept the fact that is is known to sound good, it is what Punkr chose, and stop trying to lower the tweeter and raise the woofer crossovers to "virtually " eliminate the midrange... The 12" is the thing that will make this sound good. Frequency response alone doesn't tell you how good a driver sounds...
EDIT:
Actually , I'm sure we could cross the tweeter down to close to 2000 hz without problem-This would give us better dispersion. The issue is the waveguide or horn.
The Blue Wonder text mentions that he ended up crossing the mid at 400 hz which as he mentions , is lower than optimal for power handling in order to get more of a hi fi sound. Well, with our 12" we can cross there or a lot lower and still have plenty of power handling. That's probably a clever thing on our part!
Just occured to me to try to find out the dispersion of the 12" with and without the whizzer- possibly at lower frequencies the whizzer is still giving it wider dispersion, which would be a great thing in a 12" that is crossed over so high......and would be a good reason to stick with the whizzer...
I proposed an idea of having the 12" crossed very low- say 100 hz, because you could have it overlap the 18" at that point- say have the top end of the 18 crossed over at 120, and the low end of the 12 crossed at 100. This would give a big bump at around 100hz which is what you say you want. As you point out, this might be easier to do passively, although a decent active crossover should allow this. OK a question someone :Will the Behringer that I mentioned allow the 18" to have a higher crossover point than the low point for the 12" ? the question is whether the 12" can handle frequencies that low. The thing to do is design a sealed box for it that allows it to go to this frequency, then to check is the x-max.
The two Beta 12" drivers may have the same magnet, frame, coil assembly and cone material. The one without the whizzer cone has almost exactly the same response curve as the one with the whizzer, it just changes at the point the whizzer would come in. We should use use the 12 up to 2500hz because that is what the high frequency driver prefers and is actually considered a rather low crossover. Also it might work perfectly with the 12" mid running without an upper crossover.
Tinnitus, it is clear you just hate the 12", probably due to its frequency response, and remember I was proposing the 8" BUT lets accept the fact that is is known to sound good, it is what Punkr chose, and stop trying to lower the tweeter and raise the woofer crossovers to "virtually " eliminate the midrange... The 12" is the thing that will make this sound good. Frequency response alone doesn't tell you how good a driver sounds...
EDIT:
Actually , I'm sure we could cross the tweeter down to close to 2000 hz without problem-This would give us better dispersion. The issue is the waveguide or horn.
The Blue Wonder text mentions that he ended up crossing the mid at 400 hz which as he mentions , is lower than optimal for power handling in order to get more of a hi fi sound. Well, with our 12" we can cross there or a lot lower and still have plenty of power handling. That's probably a clever thing on our part!
Just occured to me to try to find out the dispersion of the 12" with and without the whizzer- possibly at lower frequencies the whizzer is still giving it wider dispersion, which would be a great thing in a 12" that is crossed over so high......and would be a good reason to stick with the whizzer...
Nooo, I dont hate anything....I was just reflecting on your own debate with another 12"....otherwise I keep still
My crossover suggestion is made with exactly 12LTA in mind....well, I admit it came up when I thought about using only two 12LTA in a 2.5way....so I thought, why not with 18"
Actually I want more output all the way up above 500hz....not just a ripple around 100hz....but crossing that low we can agree on active...but personally I have no experience with that....but you cant suddenly say UPS, sorry we cant without active crossover
I fully respect Punks choise, my only concern is to make it work, we have promised that, right....so it does not really matter what each of us like, or not like.
Its just very difficult to do things this way....we dont agree very easy...gets to my nerves....I am trying just to give support....critical
My crossover suggestion is made with exactly 12LTA in mind....well, I admit it came up when I thought about using only two 12LTA in a 2.5way....so I thought, why not with 18"
Actually I want more output all the way up above 500hz....not just a ripple around 100hz....but crossing that low we can agree on active...but personally I have no experience with that....but you cant suddenly say UPS, sorry we cant without active crossover
I fully respect Punks choise, my only concern is to make it work, we have promised that, right....so it does not really matter what each of us like, or not like.
Its just very difficult to do things this way....we dont agree very easy...gets to my nerves....I am trying just to give support....critical
Hello,
A few things from me this morning:
My go to guy on the Beta 12s says that the current production has changed a lot. Larger x-max and so on. So new ones likely don't sound the same. That would lead me to think the driver without whizzer should be our choice. Maybe no low pass, as Variac suggests.
Variac: I did manage to find a simple crossover that flattened out the Eminence and waveguide a good bit. On paper, at least. Should be able to do it again.
Punkrokr: If the 3 way crossover with sub out is in the budget, yeah, get it. It will allow you to expand later, as you said. Which one were you looking at?
Well, just when we had it close to settled - here comes Cal to blow the doors off again!
FYI, the A7s that were about to shake his garage to the ground are the "little" speakers in the photo. Not little at all, really.
The dimensions are: 30" (w) x 24" (d) x 54" (h)
And it's my favorite bass cabinet of all time. I used to use a pair for high quality P.A. For 20 years I've been wishing for a living room big enough for a pair of A7s. Sigh...
Punkrokr: Stick with what you have at the moment, unless the A7s really float your boat. We can hash out details with Cal.
Never really thought of the A7 rig as a "blow your doors down" sort of box. But if it works for Cal - OK!
So Cal, if he were to go with a pair of A7s on the bottom, what would he use for the top that he could afford? I see you have 511 horns -probably with Altec 802s or similar. What could he find to replace those and stay in budget?
Oh yeah, those fish on the wall behind the speakers are leftovers from one of Cal's speaker projects.
A few things from me this morning:
My go to guy on the Beta 12s says that the current production has changed a lot. Larger x-max and so on. So new ones likely don't sound the same. That would lead me to think the driver without whizzer should be our choice. Maybe no low pass, as Variac suggests.
Variac: I did manage to find a simple crossover that flattened out the Eminence and waveguide a good bit. On paper, at least. Should be able to do it again.
Punkrokr: If the 3 way crossover with sub out is in the budget, yeah, get it. It will allow you to expand later, as you said. Which one were you looking at?
Well, just when we had it close to settled - here comes Cal to blow the doors off again!
FYI, the A7s that were about to shake his garage to the ground are the "little" speakers in the photo. Not little at all, really.
The dimensions are: 30" (w) x 24" (d) x 54" (h)
And it's my favorite bass cabinet of all time. I used to use a pair for high quality P.A. For 20 years I've been wishing for a living room big enough for a pair of A7s. Sigh...
Punkrokr: Stick with what you have at the moment, unless the A7s really float your boat. We can hash out details with Cal.
Never really thought of the A7 rig as a "blow your doors down" sort of box. But if it works for Cal - OK!
So Cal, if he were to go with a pair of A7s on the bottom, what would he use for the top that he could afford? I see you have 511 horns -probably with Altec 802s or similar. What could he find to replace those and stay in budget?
Oh yeah, those fish on the wall behind the speakers are leftovers from one of Cal's speaker projects.
I'll second Cal's recommendation for A-7s for this application.
A guy in my dorm had a set. They did an amazing job providing a counter to finals week quiet hours. He'd roll them out into the hall a few minutes before quiet hours ended and everyone on the floors above and below us knew that the hour of fun had begun. All with 75 watt SWTP Tiger amps. It would have been nice to add Cal's A4s to get some real bottom in there.
A guy in my dorm had a set. They did an amazing job providing a counter to finals week quiet hours. He'd roll them out into the hall a few minutes before quiet hours ended and everyone on the floors above and below us knew that the hour of fun had begun.
All with 75 watt SWTP Tiger amps. It would have been nice to add Cal's A4s to get some real bottom in there.
The Behringer CX3400 does not allow overlap of the crossover frequencies - unless - you don't use the mid section. Then you could overlap lowpass/ highpass in the range of 440-930Hz. Not the range you were hoping for.
Unfortunately, Eminence don't publish the polar responses for these drivers. So we just don't know. The driver without whizzer should have the same response as any 12.
For wavguides, I keep thinking of the big round ones from Dayton. Like a 10" or even a 12". Should match the polar response of a 12" driver pretty well, right? Would look really cool, too.
Unfortunately, Eminence don't publish the polar responses for these drivers. So we just don't know. The driver without whizzer should have the same response as any 12.
For wavguides, I keep thinking of the big round ones from Dayton. Like a 10" or even a 12". Should match the polar response of a 12" driver pretty well, right? Would look really cool, too.
Well then.......
In that case I would suggest two KAPPA 12 paralelled and tweeter in a pure 2-way
Or maybe this new replacement for 12 LTA, I would think it would be good, I mean why else make it....like to see it though
Easy to add subs with double 18" later on
EDIT, I meant two DELTA PRO 12A pr side....very efficient...I would look at it
In that case I would suggest two KAPPA 12 paralelled and tweeter in a pure 2-way
Or maybe this new replacement for 12 LTA, I would think it would be good, I mean why else make it....like to see it though
Easy to add subs with double 18" later on
EDIT, I meant two DELTA PRO 12A pr side....very efficient...I would look at it
well , on the wave guides you and tinitus agree, and I'm sure Punkr would like yet another big disk on the front of this speaker. I think its fine too
BUT:
What we NEED is someone who actually is an expert rather than us so-called experts, to design a tweeter crossover that shapes the tweeter output to counter the falling response a bit. Because they are so efficient, you can trade off some db's to get flatter response if you know what you are doing. (ie roll off the lower treble) So, step right up wannabe experts!! we need your help!!!
As far as the full range 12" goes, it doesn't look like it hurts things much to keep the whizzer model, so why not? BUT we certainly need to low pass it to get rid of the stuff the tweeter should be handling..
I think that it will be excursion limited unless we have the crossover at 200hz or higher, so it isn't going to help with giving a bump at 70-100 hz .... That means that the active crossover should work fine to cross between the woofer and mid, and do the initial cross to the tweeter if desired. The shaping is done with passive stuff of course.
BUT:
What we NEED is someone who actually is an expert rather than us so-called experts, to design a tweeter crossover that shapes the tweeter output to counter the falling response a bit. Because they are so efficient, you can trade off some db's to get flatter response if you know what you are doing. (ie roll off the lower treble) So, step right up wannabe experts!! we need your help!!!
As far as the full range 12" goes, it doesn't look like it hurts things much to keep the whizzer model, so why not? BUT we certainly need to low pass it to get rid of the stuff the tweeter should be handling..
I think that it will be excursion limited unless we have the crossover at 200hz or higher, so it isn't going to help with giving a bump at 70-100 hz .... That means that the active crossover should work fine to cross between the woofer and mid, and do the initial cross to the tweeter if desired. The shaping is done with passive stuff of course.
Whoops I totally misunderstood Panomaniac.
He was saying to stick with the 12" WITHOUT the whizzer
OK, now we have the 18" , the 12" Beta W/O whizzer, and on to the tweeter- Pano, If you can actually design us a network for the Eminence then you should be ale to do it for the Selenium. If it is something you found, then we might be forced to go with the Eminence if someone doesn't step up and help
He was saying to stick with the 12" WITHOUT the whizzer
OK, now we have the 18" , the 12" Beta W/O whizzer, and on to the tweeter- Pano, If you can actually design us a network for the Eminence then you should be ale to do it for the Selenium. If it is something you found, then we might be forced to go with the Eminence if someone doesn't step up and help
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