I agree with Joe. Break it up into 3 boxes. One box each for the 18's, one for the mids. If they are all the same width (and maybe depth) that would make them easy to stack. Would look cool too. YES! to the handles.
And Joe is also right about the possible source of income. Once word of these monsters gets around, Punrorkr is going to be one popular guy. As was mentioned before, buy a truck or van, everyone wants you to help them move. =)
Variac. I'm cool with the twin 8 idea, if Punkrokr is. The D'Appolito design is usually turned up on end, i.e, vertical. But there are lots of examples that are horizontal - going back many decades. Lots of Altec and JBL boxes, for example. Whatever Punrokr wants.
Tinitus: I have heard a lot of Onken/Jensen Ultraflex boxes, and love them. However, I don't know how to design and tune them, and a lot of drivers don't work well in a Jensen/Onken box. Best to go with simple tube or slot ports this time. Easier to tune, too.
And Joe is also right about the possible source of income. Once word of these monsters gets around, Punrorkr is going to be one popular guy. As was mentioned before, buy a truck or van, everyone wants you to help them move. =)
Variac. I'm cool with the twin 8 idea, if Punkrokr is. The D'Appolito design is usually turned up on end, i.e, vertical. But there are lots of examples that are horizontal - going back many decades. Lots of Altec and JBL boxes, for example. Whatever Punrokr wants.
Tinitus: I have heard a lot of Onken/Jensen Ultraflex boxes, and love them. However, I don't know how to design and tune them, and a lot of drivers don't work well in a Jensen/Onken box. Best to go with simple tube or slot ports this time. Easier to tune, too.
That reminds me- make sure you build it with 13 layer void-free plywood and put a decent finish on it. Don't use MDF or (horrors!) particle board.
Another benefit to breaking it up into different cabinets- if you decide later that you want to get REALLY serious, it will be easier to upgrade the bass section with some horns without having to build a new enclosure for the top part.
Geez, this is making me jealous. One of those 18"s, one of those 8"s, and a serious horn tweeter... a DCX2496 and a few 200 watt amps, and I would be in business for an electronic drumset that would play louder than I could on my acoustic one.
Another benefit to breaking it up into different cabinets- if you decide later that you want to get REALLY serious, it will be easier to upgrade the bass section with some horns without having to build a new enclosure for the top part.
Geez, this is making me jealous. One of those 18"s, one of those 8"s, and a serious horn tweeter... a DCX2496 and a few 200 watt amps, and I would be in business for an electronic drumset that would play louder than I could on my acoustic one.
Listen to Joe please punkrockr. Do as we suggest and have three cabenets per side. In fact this won't be harder because if you made it one piece you would still have to have internal walls to brace it .
If cost is an issue you can make one 18" cube now and one later.
A good point about the future. 18" drivers in cubes could be used in other ways.. You WILL be moving as you get older. And I have also already mentioned that your friends will want to use them at parties and also DJ at school events maybe.
I really think for Punk's needs the mids should be vertically stacked to get better dispersion, no? Verticle gives better disperson beccause it acts like a narrow driver so less beaming. Also makes it taller. Also looks as cool as those photos.
So punkr, do we have the go-ahead? Do you need a better description?
tinnitus:
6" mids? not mitigating between an 18" and a horn tweeter. Jeez, we get a compromise and you keep complaining
I have an 8" Fostex mid in my home speakers and I 'm sure you would agree its hifi! Next you'll want 4"
If cost is an issue you can make one 18" cube now and one later.
A good point about the future. 18" drivers in cubes could be used in other ways.. You WILL be moving as you get older. And I have also already mentioned that your friends will want to use them at parties and also DJ at school events maybe.
I really think for Punk's needs the mids should be vertically stacked to get better dispersion, no? Verticle gives better disperson beccause it acts like a narrow driver so less beaming. Also makes it taller. Also looks as cool as those photos.
So punkr, do we have the go-ahead? Do you need a better description?
tinnitus:
6" mids? not mitigating between an 18" and a horn tweeter. Jeez, we get a compromise and you keep complaining
I have an 8" Fostex mid in my home speakers and I 'm sure you would agree its hifi! Next you'll want 4"
Nah, no complaining at all...its over...got too envolved I think
I was only making sure that Punk was absolutely sure....no bad feelings...I respect that
No, just presenting my idea of what to do...to have an alternative...showing how different things can turn out when small things are changed....helping Punk to learn....wonder how big....nooo!
But thanks...anyway....my first time with PRO drivers....nah, not really true....but wasnt aware there was so much to be had....and boy, I havent seen half of it yet....maybe I will look into 18-sound some day....I have a cheap 15" I would like to replace some time
found some nice cheap drivers ... but they will cost more...with custom, taxes and all....but I might buy that nice 6" some day...not easy to find a very good efficient driver for hifi
I suggested modular boxes too....maybe some day Punk will buy some more 18"
Come think of it....I may suggest placing woofers side by side...and then diappolito...we could agree....but then again...You want PA style....8" side by side and tweeter on top...could be nice too...and could be turned 90 degree....looking different....some day this....some day that
I was only making sure that Punk was absolutely sure....no bad feelings...I respect that
No, just presenting my idea of what to do...to have an alternative...showing how different things can turn out when small things are changed....helping Punk to learn....wonder how big....nooo!
But thanks...anyway....my first time with PRO drivers....nah, not really true....but wasnt aware there was so much to be had....and boy, I havent seen half of it yet....maybe I will look into 18-sound some day....I have a cheap 15" I would like to replace some time
found some nice cheap drivers ... but they will cost more...with custom, taxes and all....but I might buy that nice 6" some day...not easy to find a very good efficient driver for hifi
I suggested modular boxes too....maybe some day Punk will buy some more 18"
Come think of it....I may suggest placing woofers side by side...and then diappolito...we could agree....but then again...You want PA style....8" side by side and tweeter on top...could be nice too...and could be turned 90 degree....looking different....some day this....some day that
Tiny Drivers. Hmmm.... They often sound sweet, but they never sound real to me. So please, no 6" drivers in this system. That's tiny by the standards of this system.
Vertical or Horizontal mids. Honestly, I don't know. The current fad seems to be vertical, but I wonder how much of that has to do with footprint, really. Just thinking of more classic monitor and other full range boxes of the past. Lots of twin 12s with a horn, even twin 15s. They seem to work really well, to my ears anyway. The tweeter was usually above the twin woofers a little. Might make a difference.
Both should work OK. Just let Mr. Punk pick the one he likes. Who knows, may he still wants a single 12?
As for the 18 boxes - 8 feet (227L) looks good for each driver. With 2 x4" ports the box could be tuned flat with long ports or peaked all the way up to +6dB @ 50Hz with just 4" cutouts. Easy for Mr. Punk to tune it the way he wants.
Below you will see a modlel graph of the Dayton driver in an 8 foot ported and sealed box. Tinitus - I looked at a lot of sealed box volumes, this driver just didn't model well sealed. The 3dB peak you see is for more thump. A lot of it will go away with the driver's natural fall off and of course baffle step. But it should sound nice and bassy. Changing port length gives more or less boom.
There we have it!
Vertical or Horizontal mids. Honestly, I don't know. The current fad seems to be vertical, but I wonder how much of that has to do with footprint, really. Just thinking of more classic monitor and other full range boxes of the past. Lots of twin 12s with a horn, even twin 15s. They seem to work really well, to my ears anyway. The tweeter was usually above the twin woofers a little. Might make a difference.
Both should work OK. Just let Mr. Punk pick the one he likes. Who knows, may he still wants a single 12?
As for the 18 boxes - 8 feet (227L) looks good for each driver. With 2 x4" ports the box could be tuned flat with long ports or peaked all the way up to +6dB @ 50Hz with just 4" cutouts. Easy for Mr. Punk to tune it the way he wants.
Below you will see a modlel graph of the Dayton driver in an 8 foot ported and sealed box. Tinitus - I looked at a lot of sealed box volumes, this driver just didn't model well sealed. The 3dB peak you see is for more thump. A lot of it will go away with the driver's natural fall off and of course baffle step. But it should sound nice and bassy. Changing port length gives more or less boom.
There we have it!
Attachments
Sounds like if you havent decided completely on mids
SELENIUM might have a nice effective and affordable 10" mid
Looks good on picture, but I cant get in to look closely
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=264-332&DID=7
SELENIUM might have a nice effective and affordable 10" mid
Looks good on picture, but I cant get in to look closely
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=264-332&DID=7
Attachments
Its a Lenard System costum made for a multi millionare mining barron who lives in canberra, Australia. 2 x 27 inch 6 inch voicecoiled speakers -3db at 15 hz, probably a 12" or 15" mid bass, 2" horn and a ribbon tweeter for super tweeter.
Each individual speaker has its own direct current amp! (in this case valve but he also makes solid state direct current) and is electronically crossed over
I sugest you read their education pages.
lenard audio
John Bernett and lenard audio were pioneers of Live Audio in the early 70's. they developed and marketed the first amps that were in the hundreds of watts insted of the usual 30-60 watt amps of the time, they also helped pioneered one of the first 4 inch voice coiled loudspeakers through a company now known as etone.
Ok, you guys seem to like the idea of a tweeter between two mids, I'm sorry but if I do go that route I'm just not feeling it with 2 8" mids sorry guys, but like someone said earlier the 6" mid is tiny in this system. And even if it is 2 8" mids when stacked vertically the 18" woofer will make them look like dwarfs.
I'm realing feeling it with dual 18" woofers , 12" mid. and horn loaded tweeter right now.
But I am open for idea and since you guys like the whole D'Appitto arrangement (forgive me if I didn't spell it right ) I will put some thought into it but I feel uneasy about 8" mids.
The young/stubborn side of me keeps saying 2 12" mids but that's almost overkill even for this system.
I don't know,
If you guys wanna come to a comprimise fine but I'm not putting anything smaller than a 10" for the mid. Speaking of the 10" mid posted earlier, isn't that the one that I picked out a while ago?
I'm realing feeling it with dual 18" woofers , 12" mid. and horn loaded tweeter right now.
But I am open for idea and since you guys like the whole D'Appitto arrangement (forgive me if I didn't spell it right ) I will put some thought into it but I feel uneasy about 8" mids.
The young/stubborn side of me keeps saying 2 12" mids but that's almost overkill even for this system.
I don't know,
If you guys wanna come to a comprimise fine but I'm not putting anything smaller than a 10" for the mid. Speaking of the 10" mid posted earlier, isn't that the one that I picked out a while ago?
I can't wait to see Eva's custom active crossover design.
In the mean time....
tinitus, Punkrockr has made himself clear!
We will do it Pano's way and I 'm sure punkr will be very satisfied.
Pano, what was the volume you specced for the midrange driver?
OK Punkr, now Pnomaniac has calculated the size of your boxes. Just use the volume he calculated to design the boxes. Make them all the same depth and width. His number a couple of posts ago is for one 18" driver
If the 12" box will have too big a volume just put in a partition part way back (a "brace") to get the size right
Draw it and scan it or use a drawing program and post the image here!
I suspect youwill get advice..
You have to start doing some actual work, no?
In the mean time....
tinitus, Punkrockr has made himself clear!
We will do it Pano's way and I 'm sure punkr will be very satisfied.
Pano, what was the volume you specced for the midrange driver?
OK Punkr, now Pnomaniac has calculated the size of your boxes. Just use the volume he calculated to design the boxes. Make them all the same depth and width. His number a couple of posts ago is for one 18" driver
If the 12" box will have too big a volume just put in a partition part way back (a "brace") to get the size right
Draw it and scan it or use a drawing program and post the image here!
I suspect youwill get advice..
You have to start doing some actual work, no?
I don't mean to back track but look at this page , it gives you an idea of how big the speaker really are.
I'm drooling all over my keyboard looking at those 27" woofers 
Wow if I ever do get rich I'm gonna getting some of those woofers for a project. Wow, I doubt you can even purchase them alone. Does anyone have an idea of how much the 8ft opals on that page cost?
I know they probably cost about at least 30g a piece.
My long sought after 18" woofers seem so lost when compared to one of those 27" inch beasts. But on that page they are said so produce only in the 16 - 100Hz range, they sound more like an oversized sub woofer to me.
OK, well back to reality.
I think it's been said that we were going to try and stay away from horn loaded mid ranges for now ( by the way, nice set up Eva).
Especially since just found out that 13 layer void-free plywood is $60 a sheet. Now my wallet seems to have gone with the wind.
But dad is really into this so he said that he'll help me out with the material cost, but I'm still paying a good sum of it.
Just to throw something out there how do you guys think a 3-way center box like the one used on the Opals would work for me?
Ahh, the Opals that's a word I'll never forget.
If I ever do get the funds to do it I'm gonna buid something that'll give those over sized tin cans a run for their money! Lmao...
It seems Variac posted while I was typing.
Since he seems satisfied I don't want to change course cause it seems like he wants to get this overwith.
But like I said the 8" mids aren't cutting it for me unless you guys really think they will keep up.
I'm drooling all over my keyboard looking at those 27" woofers
Wow if I ever do get rich I'm gonna getting some of those woofers for a project. Wow, I doubt you can even purchase them alone. Does anyone have an idea of how much the 8ft opals on that page cost?
I know they probably cost about at least 30g a piece.
My long sought after 18" woofers seem so lost when compared to one of those 27" inch beasts. But on that page they are said so produce only in the 16 - 100Hz range, they sound more like an oversized sub woofer to me.
OK, well back to reality.
I think it's been said that we were going to try and stay away from horn loaded mid ranges for now ( by the way, nice set up Eva).
Especially since just found out that 13 layer void-free plywood is $60 a sheet. Now my wallet seems to have gone with the wind.
But dad is really into this so he said that he'll help me out with the material cost, but I'm still paying a good sum of it.
Just to throw something out there how do you guys think a 3-way center box like the one used on the Opals would work for me?
Ahh, the Opals that's a word I'll never forget.
If I ever do get the funds to do it I'm gonna buid something that'll give those over sized tin cans a run for their money! Lmao...
It seems Variac posted while I was typing.
Since he seems satisfied I don't want to change course cause it seems like he wants to get this overwith.
But like I said the 8" mids aren't cutting it for me unless you guys really think they will keep up.
I'm willing to go with the 12's. I'd rather use the 12's siimlar to those that Pano knows, than get an unknown 10" . I think the two 8's would keep up, or I wouldn't have mentioned them but I think the 12 is just fine - could be the best choice.
I think it is time to stop discussing different drivers- that's my point. Punkrokr - do you have a way to post your drawings? Lets get started. You know the volumes required- it time to use some basic math to make boxes with the internal volume Pano mentioned. We'll help you with the vents later... You said you want to say you made these from your design, well that wouldn'r be true if you don't actually do something for the design, right? If we don't like your box designs we'll help you fix them.
A cubic foot is 12 cubed or 1728 cu. in.
I think it is time to stop discussing different drivers- that's my point. Punkrokr - do you have a way to post your drawings? Lets get started. You know the volumes required- it time to use some basic math to make boxes with the internal volume Pano mentioned. We'll help you with the vents later... You said you want to say you made these from your design, well that wouldn'r be true if you don't actually do something for the design, right? If we don't like your box designs we'll help you fix them.
A cubic foot is 12 cubed or 1728 cu. in.
Ok, So I've got my driver selection.
4 Dayton Pro 18" woofers
2 12" BetaLTA mids
2 Selenium drivers with waveguides
Is this right?
Now that's done and over with.
Finally...
Where can I can a drawing program though?
the only way I can think off would be to use the Microsoft paint, which would be extremely difficult even for me being a good artist and all.
Can someone get all the data together though cause I have no idea what internal dimensions I'm supposed to be using .
That would be awesome if someone did.
4 Dayton Pro 18" woofers
2 12" BetaLTA mids
2 Selenium drivers with waveguides
Is this right?
Now that's done and over with.
Finally...
Where can I can a drawing program though?
the only way I can think off would be to use the Microsoft paint, which would be extremely difficult even for me being a good artist and all.
Can someone get all the data together though cause I have no idea what internal dimensions I'm supposed to be using .
That would be awesome if someone did.
All:
We have the tools to show whether or not a pair of 8" drivers will keep up with a pair of 18" drivers, or if something more is required. I'm going to walk through this with the assumption that later on you'll get two 18"s per side, and will drive them with their full rated power.
Looking at spl_max1.xls from http://www.linkwitzlab.com/page_index.htm, , and taking Sd for the 18" woofer to be about 1500 cm^2, Xmax to be about 6 cm, and max power to be about 512 watts, and sensitivity to be about 95 db/w/m, we can see certain things about these woofers.
If you have two of these woofers on a side, driven with about 1000 watts shared, you are excursion limited below around 100 hz, dependent on your bass reflex alignment. Above that frequency, you are power limited at around 125 db at one meter. This doesn't tell us anything about the bass since you're going ported, but it tells us a bit about how hard the midrange needs to work to keep up.
One 8" woofer has a radiating area of around 300 cm^2, and about 3 mm Xmax. Because you're using this sealed, the excel spreadsheet DOES tell us something about its excursion in its lowest reaches. If we pick a 400 hz crossover, then the single 8" driver can do 120 dB, limited by power handling. Adding a second 8" driver doubles power handling and adds 3 db to efficiency, allowing you to reach 125 db with the mids at a 400hz crossover.
The 12 inch drivers give you better sensitivity, but they really don't give you much better power handling. As far as I'm concerned at this point, it's either two 8"s or one 12", but no need for two 12"s. A single 10 doesn't look like it will keep up with two 18s.
More on the tweeters in a bit... if I get around to it.
We have the tools to show whether or not a pair of 8" drivers will keep up with a pair of 18" drivers, or if something more is required. I'm going to walk through this with the assumption that later on you'll get two 18"s per side, and will drive them with their full rated power.
Looking at spl_max1.xls from http://www.linkwitzlab.com/page_index.htm, , and taking Sd for the 18" woofer to be about 1500 cm^2, Xmax to be about 6 cm, and max power to be about 512 watts, and sensitivity to be about 95 db/w/m, we can see certain things about these woofers.
If you have two of these woofers on a side, driven with about 1000 watts shared, you are excursion limited below around 100 hz, dependent on your bass reflex alignment. Above that frequency, you are power limited at around 125 db at one meter. This doesn't tell us anything about the bass since you're going ported, but it tells us a bit about how hard the midrange needs to work to keep up.
One 8" woofer has a radiating area of around 300 cm^2, and about 3 mm Xmax. Because you're using this sealed, the excel spreadsheet DOES tell us something about its excursion in its lowest reaches. If we pick a 400 hz crossover, then the single 8" driver can do 120 dB, limited by power handling. Adding a second 8" driver doubles power handling and adds 3 db to efficiency, allowing you to reach 125 db with the mids at a 400hz crossover.
The 12 inch drivers give you better sensitivity, but they really don't give you much better power handling. As far as I'm concerned at this point, it's either two 8"s or one 12", but no need for two 12"s. A single 10 doesn't look like it will keep up with two 18s.
More on the tweeters in a bit... if I get around to it.
Thanks Joe,
I'm afraid most of us posting are having more fun talking than getting anything done... A breath of fresh air to get your input.
Punkr:
Pano gave you the internal size of one bass box for one speaker. I assume that you are making 4 bass boxes, and two combo 12"/waveguide boxes.
So first why don't you calculate the size of a bass box?
He says 8 cu ft, which is 8x12x12x12 to get cubic inches
13,824 cu in.
Then take an arbitrary width and height that sounds like about what you want, and then see what the depth would be for this
lets say 14" wide and 30" tall 14x30= 420
13824/420= 32.9" deep Is that a depth you like? or would it be better to make them less deep maybe? Well, make the box wider then. Maybe the height is wrong, so calc what that does to your width and height.
Remember these are internal sizes so you have to figure the finished boxes will be 3/4" bigger in every direction. (use 3/4" ply minimum)
Maybe you can just make a sketch and scan it and post it , or just tell use the proposed dimensions in words...
I'm afraid most of us posting are having more fun talking than getting anything done... A breath of fresh air to get your input.
Punkr:
Pano gave you the internal size of one bass box for one speaker. I assume that you are making 4 bass boxes, and two combo 12"/waveguide boxes.
So first why don't you calculate the size of a bass box?
He says 8 cu ft, which is 8x12x12x12 to get cubic inches
13,824 cu in.
Then take an arbitrary width and height that sounds like about what you want, and then see what the depth would be for this
lets say 14" wide and 30" tall 14x30= 420
13824/420= 32.9" deep Is that a depth you like? or would it be better to make them less deep maybe? Well, make the box wider then. Maybe the height is wrong, so calc what that does to your width and height.
Remember these are internal sizes so you have to figure the finished boxes will be 3/4" bigger in every direction. (use 3/4" ply minimum)
Maybe you can just make a sketch and scan it and post it , or just tell use the proposed dimensions in words...
oops. sorry about that Variac, I'll get to that ASAP, ok? and thanx for the advice but I've long since learned how to calculate the dimensions for my enclosure. Thanx anyway, though.
Well, just so you guys know I have started a new thread ( don't worry it's not another monstrousity like this ) in the subwoofers forum on what subwoofer I should use that would keep up with these speakers, when the time and money comes for me to get one.
If anyone's curious here's the thread .
Well, just so you guys know I have started a new thread ( don't worry it's not another monstrousity like this ) in the subwoofers forum on what subwoofer I should use that would keep up with these speakers, when the time and money comes for me to get one.
If anyone's curious here's the thread .
Next you have to design the combi 12" / tweeter box.
Use the width and depth of your bass boxes. See what the height comes out to match the size Pano spec'ced for the midrange.
If height isn't at least 18"( to accomodate the 12" driver, some space around it and then the tweeter waveguide) then you will have to make the internal volume smaller by adding walls on the inside. What I do is build a small box around the tweeter and horn to keep vibrations from affecting the tweeter horn. This also take up room which you will probably need to do. Of course subtract the outside volume of the tweeter box from what is available for the midrange driver.
Use the width and depth of your bass boxes. See what the height comes out to match the size Pano spec'ced for the midrange.
If height isn't at least 18"( to accomodate the 12" driver, some space around it and then the tweeter waveguide) then you will have to make the internal volume smaller by adding walls on the inside. What I do is build a small box around the tweeter and horn to keep vibrations from affecting the tweeter horn. This also take up room which you will probably need to do. Of course subtract the outside volume of the tweeter box from what is available for the midrange driver.
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