There's nothing wrong with Tinitus idea for the Eminence 8", it is a great driver, well suited to this app. But I think that punkrokr will be happier with the 12"
First: It's bigger. Second: It should sound bigger and richer than the 8. Third: It will likely match up with the 18 better. I can't swear to this, as I have not heard the drivers together - Just going from years of listening to P.A. Maybe we should split the difference and go with that 10" Selenium punkrokr like so many threads ago.
10s are used for midrange in a lot of P.A.
As for amps. All the AV recievers these days are mega-multi channel. And you only need 2! Well, 4 actually. 2 for the bass, 2 for the mid/high. You "might" be able to wire dad's Denon to get the 4 channels you need. Will have to look at the book to see. That would be a great start.
The active crossover is going to be important. See if you can find a 2 way or 3 way in your budget. Even one for car sound will get you started. Behringer are in trouble with the FCC, so their stuff has been slow coming in. But there are other brands just as good.
Also: Start with only 1 18" per side. Add the second pair later. That way you can save $300 for amps, crossovers, cables, whateverz. Once you have it up and running, add the second pair of 18s. You won't need any more amps or crossovers. Just drivers and box. Easy.
I know the temptation to get the whole giant thing going right away, I hear ya. But you don't have to. Just 18-12-horn is going to ROCK! Then you get to really kill them later with even MORE! After you have slain the neighbors and made your freinds very afraid - then you can pile on MORE!
First: It's bigger. Second: It should sound bigger and richer than the 8. Third: It will likely match up with the 18 better. I can't swear to this, as I have not heard the drivers together - Just going from years of listening to P.A. Maybe we should split the difference and go with that 10" Selenium punkrokr like so many threads ago.
10s are used for midrange in a lot of P.A.As for amps. All the AV recievers these days are mega-multi channel. And you only need 2! Well, 4 actually. 2 for the bass, 2 for the mid/high. You "might" be able to wire dad's Denon to get the 4 channels you need. Will have to look at the book to see. That would be a great start.
The active crossover is going to be important. See if you can find a 2 way or 3 way in your budget. Even one for car sound will get you started. Behringer are in trouble with the FCC, so their stuff has been slow coming in. But there are other brands just as good.
Also: Start with only 1 18" per side. Add the second pair later. That way you can save $300 for amps, crossovers, cables, whateverz. Once you have it up and running, add the second pair of 18s. You won't need any more amps or crossovers. Just drivers and box. Easy.
I know the temptation to get the whole giant thing going right away, I hear ya. But you don't have to. Just 18-12-horn is going to ROCK! Then you get to really kill them later with even MORE! After you have slain the neighbors and made your freinds very afraid - then you can pile on MORE!
Alpha 8....it does look perfect on FR....ist good match with a dometweeter.....giving a very powerfull bass...relatively
Come to think of it.....would work great with tweeterhorn too....it would get a bit of that BBC curve built in
If Punk in time should use full active, it will be better with more linear drivers that dont need passive shapeing...I would say, its the best I have seen yet, with high sensitivity
Another idea..
It should be possible to raise sensitivity with a big fronthorn....and this would place mids further back, to get better time alignment....it would not be too big with an 8"....and to make it easy, I have read that conical waveguides should be better....ideally I think it should follow the lines of drivers cone....how about that ?
Variac,..you have mentioned that tweeter should be at listening height....actually it should be mids...or somewhere in between...but time alignment is really more important
Here's the crossover yet again:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-668
Here is the crossover instruction manual, Just read it if you have questions instead of guessing
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/248-668m.pdf
We've already proposed 8" with the Beta8 which I believe has a better reputation than the Alpha, and better power handling.
And boy, a midrange fronthorn would really affect the response and dispersion, and we have no way to know how!
I thought you just said a few posts back that a big waveguide affects the high treble badly?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-668
Here is the crossover instruction manual, Just read it if you have questions instead of guessing
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/248-668m.pdf
We've already proposed 8" with the Beta8 which I believe has a better reputation than the Alpha, and better power handling.
And boy, a midrange fronthorn would really affect the response and dispersion, and we have no way to know how!
I thought you just said a few posts back that a big waveguide affects the high treble badly?
Nooo, I said that a big waveguide dont support the highs so much....what I really meant was that a compression driver seems to be very non linear on its own...its the waveguide that smoothens FR
I was not quite pleased with that BETA 8.....but this ALPHA 8A in particular looks to be really something ....may be a "sleeper" ?
There are a few very cheap drivers that beats the expencive one....could be one of those rare occations ?
If you have noticed....you get ralatively more bass when you use a mid with lower sensitivity
Punk wont ever need another 18".....would be more fun to supplement with a 15hz sub....in time !
But its your game !
I was not quite pleased with that BETA 8.....but this ALPHA 8A in particular looks to be really something ....may be a "sleeper" ?
There are a few very cheap drivers that beats the expencive one....could be one of those rare occations ?
If you have noticed....you get ralatively more bass when you use a mid with lower sensitivity
Punk wont ever need another 18".....would be more fun to supplement with a 15hz sub....in time !
But its your game !
I have to agree that he should buy only 2 18" at first. It would actually be interesting to first see how loud and bassy a pair is first. If it makes him feel better he could build the boxes now for the second pair. For the price of one 18" he can get the crossover.. and the cables he needs! For the price of the second he can probably pick up a second hand amp.
The Beta 8 is the one I have heard about that is the cheap driver that beats the expensive ones.
The Beta 8 is the one I have heard about that is the cheap driver that beats the expensive ones.
I didnt think I would have to prove that....you should have experienced on your own....if you have ever turned down the volume
Everybody must have experienced when playing loud.....and turn down the volume....suddenly it dont seem very loud, though it actually still is pretty loud
And the other way round its possible to raise ears sensitivity....by playing very low for some time....and suddenly its actually loud enough....but your speaker must have quite good low level definition to do this
But prove it... nope
Wait....this man agrees
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/listen.htm
Everybody must have experienced when playing loud.....and turn down the volume....suddenly it dont seem very loud, though it actually still is pretty loud
And the other way round its possible to raise ears sensitivity....by playing very low for some time....and suddenly its actually loud enough....but your speaker must have quite good low level definition to do this
But prove it... nope
Wait....this man agrees
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/listen.htm
Zounds! Those double 18s are big! Look nice, too. Good stuff.
Punkrokr old buddy, the Force is certainly with you. Dad's Dennon has EXT IN connections! That means you can use a 2 way active crossover and power everything with the Dennon. Sweet! The 18's can be powered off the front channels, the mid/highs off the surround amps. Cool. That will certainly get you started until you get amps of your own.
You can use the PRE outs to go to the crossover, then come back in the EXT IN connections. Gotta set it up that way in the menu, but it can be done.
Lets stay away from waveguides on the mids for right now, pleeeease. As nice as they may be, the project is complicated enough now. The waveguides are not really needed at this point. For later experimentation, maybe.
I sure like the look of the last rig Variac posted. Punkrokr, would that be a look you like? 18s on top and bottom, mids in the middle? You could build it like that leaving room at the top for the extra 18s when you get them. The flared sides would work well for the sound.
Punkrokr old buddy, the Force is certainly with you. Dad's Dennon has EXT IN connections! That means you can use a 2 way active crossover and power everything with the Dennon. Sweet! The 18's can be powered off the front channels, the mid/highs off the surround amps. Cool. That will certainly get you started until you get amps of your own.
You can use the PRE outs to go to the crossover, then come back in the EXT IN connections. Gotta set it up that way in the menu, but it can be done.
Lets stay away from waveguides on the mids for right now, pleeeease. As nice as they may be, the project is complicated enough now. The waveguides are not really needed at this point. For later experimentation, maybe.
I sure like the look of the last rig Variac posted. Punkrokr, would that be a look you like? 18s on top and bottom, mids in the middle? You could build it like that leaving room at the top for the extra 18s when you get them. The flared sides would work well for the sound.
Variac, for sure I would....in a very big room.....with ALPHA 8A..... but they are not needed in a small room....too close to speakers....but ofcourse, it would be my choice if it had to be with double 18".....now Punk will be totally out of control....allthough totally crazy and insane....if I have a good feeling about used drivers I will try and help all I can
Looking at BETA 8A and ALPHA 8A they seem very much alike....but it could look like BETA 8A is a bit more ragged....could be due to a bit higher sensitivity.....very common
I think I will take closer look at TS....
I wonder if HAMMER 8 and BETA 8A are completely identical
Looking at BETA 8A and ALPHA 8A they seem very much alike....but it could look like BETA 8A is a bit more ragged....could be due to a bit higher sensitivity.....very common
I think I will take closer look at TS....
I wonder if HAMMER 8 and BETA 8A are completely identical
ALPHA 8A and BETA 8A
Thats quite simple it seems
ALPHA 8A has a bit smaller magnet....which often can count for a softer and smoother sound.....but ofcourse less control
It is also 1db maybe 2db less sensitive
Voice coil is a tiny bit longer...which gives 0.2mm more Xmax
all this ofcourse changes VAS and Q-values
UPS! center dustcap are different....normally i dont like when dustcap is wider than voicecoil....it is on ALPHA 8A
If one is really better than the other is impossible to say....Im sure they are both nice
BUT as I recall about "Blue..." he talks about a smaller bass box, to have a little more boom....which you will have automatically with ALPHA 8A....and could be had with a tight and nice controlled woofer.....man, I really dont know at the moment....
Thats quite simple it seems
ALPHA 8A has a bit smaller magnet....which often can count for a softer and smoother sound.....but ofcourse less control
It is also 1db maybe 2db less sensitive
Voice coil is a tiny bit longer...which gives 0.2mm more Xmax
all this ofcourse changes VAS and Q-values
UPS! center dustcap are different....normally i dont like when dustcap is wider than voicecoil....it is on ALPHA 8A
If one is really better than the other is impossible to say....Im sure they are both nice
BUT as I recall about "Blue..." he talks about a smaller bass box, to have a little more boom....which you will have automatically with ALPHA 8A....and could be had with a tight and nice controlled woofer.....man, I really dont know at the moment....
And it goes on and on....
This 6" looks quite good....rather small, but nice extended top
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-400s.pdf
Cone, dustcap and surround looks VERY nice
This 6" looks quite good....rather small, but nice extended top
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-400s.pdf
Cone, dustcap and surround looks VERY nice
tintius: Don't you ever sleep???
The smaller box on the Blues is certainly the bass box. I don't think it was the mid box. He put the Hammer 8 (same as Beta 8) in a 1ft closed box. That would work well for the Beta 12, too.
This speaker IS going to want a low end bump to get the kind of sound Punk wants. He's looking for that big boom of car sound. It will be easy enough to make th ports tunable so he can change the bass properties to his liking and evolving tastes.
Still think Punkrokr is gonna be happier with the Beta 12. The 8 has advantages, for sure. But so do a lot of drivers. Whichever he chooses will work fine. They will just sound and look a little different, that's all. One 8 , two 8s, one 12, whateverz. It will all work pretty well.
EDIT
Yes, I think the Dayton 18" is an Eminence. Looks just like one and is "Made in USA." Not an exact twin of anything in the line now.
The smaller box on the Blues is certainly the bass box. I don't think it was the mid box. He put the Hammer 8 (same as Beta 8) in a 1ft closed box. That would work well for the Beta 12, too.
This speaker IS going to want a low end bump to get the kind of sound Punk wants. He's looking for that big boom of car sound. It will be easy enough to make th ports tunable so he can change the bass properties to his liking and evolving tastes.
Still think Punkrokr is gonna be happier with the Beta 12. The 8 has advantages, for sure. But so do a lot of drivers. Whichever he chooses will work fine. They will just sound and look a little different, that's all. One 8 , two 8s, one 12, whateverz. It will all work pretty well.
EDIT
Yes, I think the Dayton 18" is an Eminence. Looks just like one and is "Made in USA." Not an exact twin of anything in the line now.
aouch .... sudden wake-up call
To get that low end bump, I think with active it will be Punks own responcibility to find the best crossoverpoint and levels to achieve that
I have to say this straight and honest the best way I know....
"Normally" to get a real nice upper mids you never really use anything bigger than 6".....with a few exceptions....unless you have to
People that do use big studio pa drivers....mostly compensate by the use of tubeamps or other softsounding small amps
But certainly, taste in music matters a lot....I guess there is no chance of Punk listening to classical music....and some like soft others dont....we all like it differently....my guess is that Punk like it hard and tough....and thats not the hardest thing to do....personally I just like.....as perfect as possible....whatever that may be.....possibly wont be .....but have to try at least
If mid/top section is made powerful enough....and its made in a modular way....it should be possible for Punk to ad that extra 18" later....but not really sure I like the idea
To defend our confusion...it really comes from Punk announcing buying more 18"....would need more mids to make any sense
I have said my piece, and a bit extra.....you make your choice....I wont argue any more.....over and out
To get that low end bump, I think with active it will be Punks own responcibility to find the best crossoverpoint and levels to achieve that
I have to say this straight and honest the best way I know....
"Normally" to get a real nice upper mids you never really use anything bigger than 6".....with a few exceptions....unless you have to
People that do use big studio pa drivers....mostly compensate by the use of tubeamps or other softsounding small amps
But certainly, taste in music matters a lot....I guess there is no chance of Punk listening to classical music....and some like soft others dont....we all like it differently....my guess is that Punk like it hard and tough....and thats not the hardest thing to do....personally I just like.....as perfect as possible....whatever that may be.....possibly wont be .....but have to try at least
If mid/top section is made powerful enough....and its made in a modular way....it should be possible for Punk to ad that extra 18" later....but not really sure I like the idea
To defend our confusion...it really comes from Punk announcing buying more 18"....would need more mids to make any sense
I have said my piece, and a bit extra.....you make your choice....I wont argue any more.....over and out
But to get things straight...
All this active....passive....not really knowing.....mumbojumbo
To cut the c....r...a....p.....now that active is an issue anyway
A L L A C T I V E 2-way with a pair of theese and a horn.....
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-510s.pdf
with promised Emminence discount and all......would be cheaper....and propably much better
no missmatching.....no odd phase problems.....you can rest assured that punk will love it....once set up....and he would get full use of compression tweeters
Have I said this before...cant remember....think it was before active was an issue
I know he will think...what if...those big 18"....but in a small room with two of them....I really dont believe it....remember there could be loots of ressonance in small room....and some wellcome extra gain for that matter
You know...some day he might buy a nice equalizer....to make his own preferable sound
But you guys have to do the hardest part.....choosing the right setup.....making Punk a happy kid.....but it is getting expencive, and knowing it could fail completely because of the tiniest little problem....well....
All this active....passive....not really knowing.....mumbojumbo
To cut the c....r...a....p.....now that active is an issue anyway
A L L A C T I V E 2-way with a pair of theese and a horn.....
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-510s.pdf
with promised Emminence discount and all......would be cheaper....and propably much better
no missmatching.....no odd phase problems.....you can rest assured that punk will love it....once set up....and he would get full use of compression tweeters
Have I said this before...cant remember....think it was before active was an issue
I know he will think...what if...those big 18"....but in a small room with two of them....I really dont believe it....remember there could be loots of ressonance in small room....and some wellcome extra gain for that matter
You know...some day he might buy a nice equalizer....to make his own preferable sound
But you guys have to do the hardest part.....choosing the right setup.....making Punk a happy kid.....but it is getting expencive, and knowing it could fail completely because of the tiniest little problem....well....
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