Well I listened to the YG Acoustics Vantage and the Elsinore speakers by Joe Rasmussen in the same day within two hours of one another. To my surprise, the YG Acoustics did not do what the Elsinore's do. The Elsinore's we're just simply better to my ears. Bigger sounding, more holographic, clearer detail throughout the mid-range and highs...
There are a lot of variables involved like amplifiers, preamp etc. Also different rooms. And maybe a selective pair of ears. But the fact that a DIY design is good enough to make you think for a bit... I think they are certainly worth less than a tenth of the price.
There are a lot of variables involved like amplifiers, preamp etc. Also different rooms. And maybe a selective pair of ears. But the fact that a DIY design is good enough to make you think for a bit... I think they are certainly worth less than a tenth of the price.
Interesting thread I've been following without posting till now. Wading in...
There are so many levels of performance & expectations in audio that it's really impossible to answer the OP's query in a straightforward way. There is no simple answer. Hence nearly 400 posts of varied discussion without real consensus. 😀
I suspect if the very best meticulously engineered expensive speakers & the smartest budget speakers are excluded, we can say yes, the best DIYers can do as well, often for less $ but with great effort and time. We mostly work alone, even if we get advice & learn from great forums like this one. If you are exceptionally brilliant, highly capable & own & mastered a huge array of tools, perhaps you can match the work of a large company dedicated to nothing but loudspeaker design & manufacture for decades. Most of us don't fit this description.
There is a pair of used Vandersteen 2e in good condition advertised right now for CA$1000 or USD700. The seller might accept less. I cannot imagine anyone here working from scratch (ie, design + execution) can match them for that kind of $. Or even 2x or 3x that.
If DIY is just execution (build), then copying well-designed speakers widely lauded & well-documented could match or exceed commercial offerings -- but again, not in the bargain sector but higher up, perhaps starting as high as $2000. Ditto well designed kits published by the likes of SBA, Seas, the Germans outfits mentioned earlier.
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Underlying my comments & this entire discussion is a gorilla in the room that isn't much discussed, even here: Audio's Circle of Confusion. A term coined by Floyd Toole. In essence, the distortions in the recordings we use to evaluate loudspeakers cannot be easily separated from those produced by the loudspeaker. So are we really evaluating the fidelity of speakers? Or their ability to make varied recordings sound good? The two are not the same.
The article I linked goes back to 2009, but afaik, it is just as relevant today.
We all use various recordings to assess loudspeakers, and more than likely, we choose recordings that sound better with our loudspeakers or, inversely, make them sound better. People ask me whether my speakers favor certain types of music, and my standard answer is that they don't know what kind of music is being played, they don't care, and it's simply about converting the electrical signal flowing into them into sounds as faithfully as possible. This answer isn't complete because the parameters that govern the recordings which produce that signal flow varies so greatly.
One of the most repeated comments/questions about a loudspeaker is not about how it sounds with "good" recordings but how it handles bad recordings. More often than not, loudspeakers that reveal inadequacies in the recording (or in some case, the media) are derided as unforgiving, too revealing, etc. How can a truly accurate loudspeaker NOT reveal such inadequacies or not sound bad with such recordings?
I guess what I am saying is that the entire audio industry is deeply flawed as a result of this circle of confusion, and as dedicated audio consumers or speaker builders, we are forced to choose between something that sounds pretty good with most recordings but is inherently not truly accurate, and something that's far more accurate but reveals the flaws and inadequacies of some of our favorite music recordings. I usually favor the latter. Not everyone does.
In contrast, the movie/video industry seems to have done audio properly. I am not knowledgeable about it, but there appear to be quite detailed requirements for both theatres & for HT playback, and the recording side has to follow standards for correct playback through the defined playback systems. This seems far in advance of the music-only audio industry.
There are so many levels of performance & expectations in audio that it's really impossible to answer the OP's query in a straightforward way. There is no simple answer. Hence nearly 400 posts of varied discussion without real consensus. 😀
I suspect if the very best meticulously engineered expensive speakers & the smartest budget speakers are excluded, we can say yes, the best DIYers can do as well, often for less $ but with great effort and time. We mostly work alone, even if we get advice & learn from great forums like this one. If you are exceptionally brilliant, highly capable & own & mastered a huge array of tools, perhaps you can match the work of a large company dedicated to nothing but loudspeaker design & manufacture for decades. Most of us don't fit this description.
There is a pair of used Vandersteen 2e in good condition advertised right now for CA$1000 or USD700. The seller might accept less. I cannot imagine anyone here working from scratch (ie, design + execution) can match them for that kind of $. Or even 2x or 3x that.
If DIY is just execution (build), then copying well-designed speakers widely lauded & well-documented could match or exceed commercial offerings -- but again, not in the bargain sector but higher up, perhaps starting as high as $2000. Ditto well designed kits published by the likes of SBA, Seas, the Germans outfits mentioned earlier.
-----------------
Underlying my comments & this entire discussion is a gorilla in the room that isn't much discussed, even here: Audio's Circle of Confusion. A term coined by Floyd Toole. In essence, the distortions in the recordings we use to evaluate loudspeakers cannot be easily separated from those produced by the loudspeaker. So are we really evaluating the fidelity of speakers? Or their ability to make varied recordings sound good? The two are not the same.
The article I linked goes back to 2009, but afaik, it is just as relevant today.
We all use various recordings to assess loudspeakers, and more than likely, we choose recordings that sound better with our loudspeakers or, inversely, make them sound better. People ask me whether my speakers favor certain types of music, and my standard answer is that they don't know what kind of music is being played, they don't care, and it's simply about converting the electrical signal flowing into them into sounds as faithfully as possible. This answer isn't complete because the parameters that govern the recordings which produce that signal flow varies so greatly.
One of the most repeated comments/questions about a loudspeaker is not about how it sounds with "good" recordings but how it handles bad recordings. More often than not, loudspeakers that reveal inadequacies in the recording (or in some case, the media) are derided as unforgiving, too revealing, etc. How can a truly accurate loudspeaker NOT reveal such inadequacies or not sound bad with such recordings?
I guess what I am saying is that the entire audio industry is deeply flawed as a result of this circle of confusion, and as dedicated audio consumers or speaker builders, we are forced to choose between something that sounds pretty good with most recordings but is inherently not truly accurate, and something that's far more accurate but reveals the flaws and inadequacies of some of our favorite music recordings. I usually favor the latter. Not everyone does.
In contrast, the movie/video industry seems to have done audio properly. I am not knowledgeable about it, but there appear to be quite detailed requirements for both theatres & for HT playback, and the recording side has to follow standards for correct playback through the defined playback systems. This seems far in advance of the music-only audio industry.
2 cents: commercial loudspeakers (other than so-called "high-end" maybe) mainly cater to the scientifically/statistically "valid" Harman average random room/placement/toe-in/seating/taste/genre of many decades ago.... How well that matches an individual's situation and needs, who knows?
I prefer minimalist-mic'ed recordings of Early/Classical Music so the audiomix problem isn't nearly as important. But the bar can be set higher for coherence, tonality, articulation, imaging depth, transcient fidelity etc.
(When I was a student I could try to buy nearly every Early/Chamber Music release; nowadays I cannot hope to sample them all despite the convenience.)
I prefer minimalist-mic'ed recordings of Early/Classical Music so the audiomix problem isn't nearly as important. But the bar can be set higher for coherence, tonality, articulation, imaging depth, transcient fidelity etc.
(When I was a student I could try to buy nearly every Early/Chamber Music release; nowadays I cannot hope to sample them all despite the convenience.)
I'll keep it short and simple.
VERY GOOD.
There's this guy who's in the business... he knows Nelson and Wayne and lotsa of people. Does my Linn. Works on his own and for a Very High End Company.
He's been in my house several times over the years.
Loves my set up... last time I was playing the Linn with the latest upgrades, P3 with Burson op amps, ZM's Pre Pro Bal, RT's A5 monos and the AN K/LX... also listened to the Semisouth F6, etc...
He commented that my A2s, F4s and A5s sound much better than the originals. That's because the DIY design has been refined over the years with better power supplies, components and attention to detail that simply were not financially possible in a production environment.
He mentioned it's the best DIY he's ever heard and that is strong praise from someone who owns PL stuff and a bunch more. After listening to the Semisouth F6 he got on the phone and ordered a production F7.
BTW- He sold me some Kimber 12TC for the Maggies. He's a good salesguy.... those are now breaking in the bridged F4s.
I'd say that well done, DIY is better than commercial products since there are no production restrictions.
BTW: @Zen Mod... my guy thinks the Iron Pre Bal sounds better than the CJ ET3SE and PV9... both of them have Teflon caps! I sort of grudgingly agree. We were wondering about an upgrade to the Iron Pre Bal with teflon caps.... there is an immediacy and transparency to the Iron Pre that the tubes obscure.
VERY GOOD.
There's this guy who's in the business... he knows Nelson and Wayne and lotsa of people. Does my Linn. Works on his own and for a Very High End Company.
He's been in my house several times over the years.
Loves my set up... last time I was playing the Linn with the latest upgrades, P3 with Burson op amps, ZM's Pre Pro Bal, RT's A5 monos and the AN K/LX... also listened to the Semisouth F6, etc...
He commented that my A2s, F4s and A5s sound much better than the originals. That's because the DIY design has been refined over the years with better power supplies, components and attention to detail that simply were not financially possible in a production environment.
He mentioned it's the best DIY he's ever heard and that is strong praise from someone who owns PL stuff and a bunch more. After listening to the Semisouth F6 he got on the phone and ordered a production F7.
BTW- He sold me some Kimber 12TC for the Maggies. He's a good salesguy.... those are now breaking in the bridged F4s.
I'd say that well done, DIY is better than commercial products since there are no production restrictions.
BTW: @Zen Mod... my guy thinks the Iron Pre Bal sounds better than the CJ ET3SE and PV9... both of them have Teflon caps! I sort of grudgingly agree. We were wondering about an upgrade to the Iron Pre Bal with teflon caps.... there is an immediacy and transparency to the Iron Pre that the tubes obscure.
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So often there are things you cannot buy.
Being interested in fullrange loudspeakers there is not much on the market.
Or at the moment I investigate piezo tweeters which have a nice attack but have to be tweaked to be acceptable for hifi.
Since RCF offers routinely FIR compensated multi ways things got better for people interested in time coherent loudspeakers.
Being interested in fullrange loudspeakers there is not much on the market.
Or at the moment I investigate piezo tweeters which have a nice attack but have to be tweaked to be acceptable for hifi.
Since RCF offers routinely FIR compensated multi ways things got better for people interested in time coherent loudspeakers.
My MacBook has a Retina display. It’s not the best in the world, but it’s easily 8/10 — excellent for daily use. I watch both amazing and terrible quality content, and I can tell the difference. Still, if the content is interesting, poor quality doesn’t ruin the experience. Same with audio: great systems don’t improve bad recordings — they just reveal them honestly.
On the good system, good recordings shine, bad ones stay bad — but you can still enjoy them if the music matters. Some polished pop mixes ("good records"?) sound fine everywhere, but might feel lifeless on top-tier gear. On the other hand, raw or badly mixed rock ("bad records"?) can sound awful on cheap speakers but come alive through high-end setups.
This shows up well in exhibitions. A significant proportion of high end sets only play carefully selected music that really shines in their performance, but avoid random tracks from visitors. On the other hand there are systems where visitors are allowed to turn on whatever recordings they want because they aren't afraid of screwing up on difficult or even bad recorded material. I like the second type.
I am OP.
I went to AXPONA 2025 this year to put my question to the test.
What did I learn?
80% of the systems were not very good.
A handful of the systems were incredible
I haven't heard any other DIY designs but some of my designs would be in that top 20%, one in the top 10%. (of course there is bias here)
It was very fun talking to the loudspeaker engineers. They definitely do not underestimate the DIY community. Their biggest advantage over us is that they have more ability to have drivers customized for their uses.
One outlier is Morel. Their motor design is so different that our simulators do not work correctly with them. They have bespoke software their engineers use to model their speakers. It is not available to the public and they have no interest in ever releasing it to the public.
I went to AXPONA 2025 this year to put my question to the test.
What did I learn?
80% of the systems were not very good.
A handful of the systems were incredible
I haven't heard any other DIY designs but some of my designs would be in that top 20%, one in the top 10%. (of course there is bias here)
It was very fun talking to the loudspeaker engineers. They definitely do not underestimate the DIY community. Their biggest advantage over us is that they have more ability to have drivers customized for their uses.
One outlier is Morel. Their motor design is so different that our simulators do not work correctly with them. They have bespoke software their engineers use to model their speakers. It is not available to the public and they have no interest in ever releasing it to the public.
I recently attended a classical music festival that a friend recorded professionally -- 2 weeks worth of performances, a wide variety of music from full symphony to single instruments. The acoustics in the concert hall are excellent, and Devon's using pretty good gear, Neumann mics, etc. He's been a sound man for movies in/around Vancouver for nearly 2 decades, so I expect he knows what he's doing, though this is his first classical gig. The weakest part of the recording setup seemed to be that all the mics had to go through the home wiring & feed to a 36-track mixer upstream from his gear. There's an added AD/DA step.
The sound quality of minimally mixed WAV files (of some performances I actually attended) that he shared with me is excellent over the LX521-clones setup in my studio. I didn't expect the system to fully replicate what I heard but I am pleased that it gets enough right to be quite immersive. It needs a bit more extension below 30Hz to get more of that somewhat rumbly hall ambience, and perhaps slightly higher SPL capability to more closely replicate my 6th row seating experience.
I am hoping to use the finished 24/48 tracks he's going to share with me as regular reference material for assessing & developing loudspeakers. They will be the least processed of all my recordings, other than a few tracks of a few musicians I recorded live in my studio last year. The mics & mixer used for those sessions were not the best, but they're pretty good reference material for me.
These tracks bypass the audio circle of confusion, as there is little to no processing of the live feed, no editorializing. I hope to build a collection of such music recordings.
MK6 NRX with foil inductors on the midrange and Duelund caps on the tweeter. They sound excellent. I am going to build the Compact Hamlet soon as well. I should hopefully have those done in a month or two.
I did go into listening to the YG Acoustics system thinking, "I really want to like these". And I did. Just not as much as I had hoped.
Yes the Elsinore speakers seem to be difficult to build and that there are a lot of people who simply haven't built them yet because of the that.
For the hamlets, I have four MFC drivers. I need the rest of the parts. If for some reason you decide that you're not going to build the Elsinore, shoot me a message. I actually wouldn't mind having four extra MFC drivers as well that way I could try them in my current elsinore's if I ever decide.
Otherwise I'll be purchasing the parts in the next month or so
For the hamlets, I have four MFC drivers. I need the rest of the parts. If for some reason you decide that you're not going to build the Elsinore, shoot me a message. I actually wouldn't mind having four extra MFC drivers as well that way I could try them in my current elsinore's if I ever decide.
Otherwise I'll be purchasing the parts in the next month or so