^..."highly engineered 2-way speakers"
I think this thread should distinguish between a beginners DIY build and a state of the art DIY build. If you are using online calculators or off the shelf crossovers then DIY can't outperform commercial. If you do not have the tools or woodworking skills then DIY can't equal some of the nicest builds. Designing a DIY speaker that can out perform a high quality commercial speaker requires a lot of speaker building knowledge and woodworking skills.
There is not much that is highly engineered about commercial speakers compared to good DIY. The same quality of driver's are available to DIYers (and in fact must of the exact same drivers), the same crossover components and the same laws of physics. In fact, what makes it possible for DIY to out perform commercial speakers for the money is that commercial speakers face constraints, due to the need to be profitable, that DIY speakers don't. Even many expensive commercial speakers are known for having compromised cabinets and cheap crossover components.
I think this thread should distinguish between a beginners DIY build and a state of the art DIY build. If you are using online calculators or off the shelf crossovers then DIY can't outperform commercial. If you do not have the tools or woodworking skills then DIY can't equal some of the nicest builds. Designing a DIY speaker that can out perform a high quality commercial speaker requires a lot of speaker building knowledge and woodworking skills.
There is not much that is highly engineered about commercial speakers compared to good DIY. The same quality of driver's are available to DIYers (and in fact must of the exact same drivers), the same crossover components and the same laws of physics. In fact, what makes it possible for DIY to out perform commercial speakers for the money is that commercial speakers face constraints, due to the need to be profitable, that DIY speakers don't. Even many expensive commercial speakers are known for having compromised cabinets and cheap crossover components.
I think the Genelec baffle with its built in wave guide and contoured cabinet would fall into the "highly engineered" space. These speakers get measured (Klippel) with tools that most DIYers don't have.
Agree A4eaudio. While most commercial manufacturers have the knowledge, resources, and experience....they often don't utilize their full potential and cut corners/make sacrifices for the bottom line. Bose and others proved in the early 1980s that performance is great....but....looks, marketing, and ergonomic appeal are more and more important.....especially in the "modern" family living spaces.
Of course, there are exceptions to both DIY and commercial generalizations. The vast majority of DIYers are likely not engineers/carpenters/wave dynamics physicists.....and don't have the desire or time required for pinnacle audio performance.....which is very reasonable considering degrees of auditory function loss/etc that music at decibels aficionados enjoy.
Of course, there are exceptions to both DIY and commercial generalizations. The vast majority of DIYers are likely not engineers/carpenters/wave dynamics physicists.....and don't have the desire or time required for pinnacle audio performance.....which is very reasonable considering degrees of auditory function loss/etc that music at decibels aficionados enjoy.
Genelec design and make well engineering speakers but it is still low tech that hobbyists could tackle in a their garages/workshops if willing to invest the time and effort. Casting is not something speaker hobbyist usually get involved with but it is quite doable with hobbyist resource and budget. Of course the pros and cons for a one-off DIY cast speaker cabinet and a run of commercial speakers are rather different.
Klippel hardware enables sets of measurements to be taken fairly quickly and locally without having to mess about remotely outside, in large halls or anechoic chambers for those with access. The value to an individual hobbyist steadily working on their current design in some of their free time over a period of weeks and months is very much less than a commercial team working 9-5, 5 days a week on their set of speaker designs. Time is expensive for commercial enterprises in a way it is not for hobbyists.
Hi Andy: If your point is that with enough time, effort and know how, you could duplicate a Genelec design, I would agree. It's just that no one would. They would just buy one and save money and time.
My initial point is that there is not a lot of margin in low cost speakers and DIY is better suited to take advantage of higher cost speakers. If you put that same effort into a something like a Dynaudio Confidence 30 and duplicate the acoustic lens and other attributes of a speaker like that, you could save yourself thousands. That would be worth making the trip.
My initial point is that there is not a lot of margin in low cost speakers and DIY is better suited to take advantage of higher cost speakers. If you put that same effort into a something like a Dynaudio Confidence 30 and duplicate the acoustic lens and other attributes of a speaker like that, you could save yourself thousands. That would be worth making the trip.
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Where's the fun in buying one? I guess it is going to depend on what people get from the design and build part of the hobby versus what they get from owning and using the speakers. For some most of the value lies with the former whereas for others all the value lies with the latter and indeed the former may be considered a chore with negative value like assembling IKEA furniture. It's remarkable how differently people can value things when from the outside they appear to have the same hobby.
Hmmm.... The Genelec 8040B is $1,175 a speaker/$2,350 a pair. That might be fun to try to clone. If it could be done for $500 a pair, that might be appealing.
I think the studio monitors models with coaxials are probably hard to match, as there aren't that many affordable coaxials available to DIYers (at least that I know of). And I'm not sure what amplifiers/DSP options are available - I have a feeling that here the commercial companies are probably getting the electronics for the active speakers a lot cheaper than a DIYer can get them one-off. I may have to start a thread and try it.
I think the studio monitors models with coaxials are probably hard to match, as there aren't that many affordable coaxials available to DIYers (at least that I know of). And I'm not sure what amplifiers/DSP options are available - I have a feeling that here the commercial companies are probably getting the electronics for the active speakers a lot cheaper than a DIYer can get them one-off. I may have to start a thread and try it.
I see your point now.
I do see this approach is however in conflict with A ) experiencing the original recorded event in a concert hall, B) the approach taken in studio control room to ensure the translation of the monitor is correct.
Sure if you want to make the effort to listen to it analytically fine but that is not in the purest sense what music is about. It’s the emotional connection with the listener.
In an ideal situation your not considering what auditory state your in nor should you need to.
My argument is that with a correctly treated room you are not needing to adopt those auditory skills.
If you ever watch GR Research and look at what’s inside mode hifi loudspeaker under $3000 the drivers are all OEM, the cabinets are minimalist with little bracing, minimal attention to acoustic wadding and low cost crossover parts.
These are engineered to a price point and a category to sell and make a profit.
The higher priced categories have better of everything in that they are more refined.
These are almost cookie cutter versions of variations in each range from small to large bookshelf or tower styles
The high priced flagship has bespoke drivers, enclosure, baffle design and network. Those sell in low volume.
The Genesis project
Why don’t you guys pick a sensibly priced stand mount loudspeaker and come up with an equivalent or better diy version.
I think it would be a fun and interesting exercise to see where you get to. You might create several in the end as a collaborative effort and evolve them into like a kit with plans. Or perhaps a competition to see who can design a giant killer.
Why don’t you guys pick a sensibly priced stand mount loudspeaker and come up with an equivalent or better diy version.
I think it would be a fun and interesting exercise to see where you get to. You might create several in the end as a collaborative effort and evolve them into like a kit with plans. Or perhaps a competition to see who can design a giant killer.
The LS50 Meta 1793 is available in China for $150/pr (OEM). I just got them as a challenge -- very different behavior from everything I've tried before. Some XO partial info (or mis-info) can be found including a circuit. It would be great if someone or team seriously tackled it. (Don't know how different from regular LS50 or Q150.)
Hi, thanks checking it out again and you are right that in correctly treated room one doesn't necessarily need it, but it would tell whether it is correctly treated or not 😉 It's just a tool, which guides the listener to suitable listening spot, if you go to a new situation or are setting up your stereo or acoustics.
I did not write too deeply about it in the post and hinted to Griesinger papers. As I've understood when the stream separation happens brain pays involuntary attention to the sound, basically your own processor allocates resources to handle the sound for your consciousness as important thing you should pay attention to. The sound gets better perceptually, surrounding noises suppress like early reflections, and spatial cues in the recording get through to perception much better. But there is more, it goes well into memory and I suppose also better into emotions. This is the key I tried to get accross, get the unconscious part of brain interested about the sound and that this can also happen in non treated room, just shrink listening triangle enough. Conversely, if too far the brain thinks it's just noise and doesn't pay attention, doesn't allocate resources. Thus it is not directly acoustics that is responsiblenof good sound, but your own brain. Acoustics further refine it of course, and could extend it far into room. In untreated room one might have to listen very close to get the brain with it.
When one learns to notice this effect of their own brain, it's easy to utilize in any situation. Too hazy sound, hard to understand what spouse is rambling about? just get closer and suddenly it's easy 😉 It is on/off type of thing, either brain is with you or not, and thus seems reliable to detect in any situation removing confusion from perception which allows some reasoning about acoustics and system one is dealing with.
Well, enough, I've written about this for a year, tens of posts so back to topic 😀
Do you mean the same GR Research that sells cryo-treated AC power cords for $369 and then recommends 200 hours of burn-in for them before they sound their best?
https://gr-research.com/product/b24-power-cable/
That alone pretty much destroys any credibility they might have on any other subject.
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Yep the guy who takes things apart, "fixes" the speakers by revoicing them, changing the on axis response, and then sells you upgrade kits for the crossovers parts.
It is surprising how minimal the parts can be.
People are free to do what ever they want with their gear. YMMV not a fan.
Rob 🙂
https://gr-research.com/speaker-upgrades/
It is surprising how minimal the parts can be.
People are free to do what ever they want with their gear. YMMV not a fan.
Rob 🙂
https://gr-research.com/speaker-upgrades/
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Apparently, none of the forty major speaker manufacturers for which he has "improvements" knows how to properly design a speaker.
I guess their engineers just aren't that good.
And their extensive testing facilities and procedures are somehow lacking as well.
Even the very expensive products still need improvement.
I guess their engineers just aren't that good.
And their extensive testing facilities and procedures are somehow lacking as well.
Even the very expensive products still need improvement.
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You'd think for that kind of money, he'd have the curtesy to burn them in for you. 😉
jeff
Hi Rob
I used to think that but having looked at his website he does sell credible kits , drivers and a bit of snake oil to attract business.
What did get my attention was a call out to other online YouTube channels to do a re think on their mind set around the space in which they review and their experience overall.
He does listen critically in a particular room and has invited other online reviewers to visit and compare notes.
Reviews by us forums needs some common ground otherwise it’s a mush mash of words