I was pondering this the other day: "How good are our what we build compared to what the giants build?"
There is clearly a wide range of talent here. With me being right smack at at the bottom and I'm sure some titans of DIY right up there at the top.
Having myself only heard a couple of actually high end units in my life (one was a $30k system and one was $110k) I am definitely not the best to answer this posed question. I also listened to those systems many years ago. Long before I ever built one.
I was watching the highlights reel on the High End Munich show and saw, to my amazement, that most of the featured units use the same drivers that are available to me. I see Peerless woofers, Seas Mids, etc. I did see quite a few custom drivers which I am sure are made bespoke for those builds.
Are we fooling ourselves that our builds are anywhere near the polished unit of these are they just doing the exact same thing in an incredibly fancy box (in this case, enclosure)?
Let me know you thoughts on the topic and especially let me know if you've listened to a DIY right next to a high end off the shelf unit.
There is clearly a wide range of talent here. With me being right smack at at the bottom and I'm sure some titans of DIY right up there at the top.
Having myself only heard a couple of actually high end units in my life (one was a $30k system and one was $110k) I am definitely not the best to answer this posed question. I also listened to those systems many years ago. Long before I ever built one.
I was watching the highlights reel on the High End Munich show and saw, to my amazement, that most of the featured units use the same drivers that are available to me. I see Peerless woofers, Seas Mids, etc. I did see quite a few custom drivers which I am sure are made bespoke for those builds.
Are we fooling ourselves that our builds are anywhere near the polished unit of these are they just doing the exact same thing in an incredibly fancy box (in this case, enclosure)?
Let me know you thoughts on the topic and especially let me know if you've listened to a DIY right next to a high end off the shelf unit.
Define 'good'; I mean they build based on marketing/'bean counter' restrictions Vs personal preference, so an 'apples n' oranges' comparison.
Several times, actually. This is why I bought the KEF LS50 Meta, simply to see if I was fooling myself.
But the measurement did not lie, and they very rarely do - if done properly.
It's not easy though, but the journey is definitely worth it, because the whole experience helps to teach the mind how rewarding it is to get better at understanding why things sound like they do.
But the measurement did not lie, and they very rarely do - if done properly.
It's not easy though, but the journey is definitely worth it, because the whole experience helps to teach the mind how rewarding it is to get better at understanding why things sound like they do.
Hi-end is expensive because they need to pay people for time and labor to design, develop, and produce multiple identical copies of a given design. That costs a lot of person-hours, and the expense of a lot of tooling, materials, etc. Plus expensive marketing and cost of sale expenses, commissions to sales people. It all adds up fast. And it is a lot for a low volume product, hence the need to price it up.
A really good DIY can get there too. But it costs a lot of personal time involvement, and maybe somr limits on the amount of variations / test versions that the DIYer can cycle thru.
A really good DIY can get there too. But it costs a lot of personal time involvement, and maybe somr limits on the amount of variations / test versions that the DIYer can cycle thru.
Dealer mark up is what 50% or so?
As above for all the dev costs and slices of the pie taken..
Bean counters reducing ambitions of engineers etc.
The actual price of the parts and materials is quite small.
Diy'ers can choose better materials, better parts, buy secondhand and refurb even, often use more careful construction and spend quality hobby time putting things together and iteratively improve them to satisfaction.
Speakers are the biggie for me.
Classy veneers on MDF with rows of passive radiating drivers, costing how MUCH?!🙂
No thanks!
As above for all the dev costs and slices of the pie taken..
Bean counters reducing ambitions of engineers etc.
The actual price of the parts and materials is quite small.
Diy'ers can choose better materials, better parts, buy secondhand and refurb even, often use more careful construction and spend quality hobby time putting things together and iteratively improve them to satisfaction.
Speakers are the biggie for me.
Classy veneers on MDF with rows of passive radiating drivers, costing how MUCH?!🙂
No thanks!
It's a great question.
I try to keep myself honest by holding on to store bought speakers with strong reputations (and ones I really liked when I bought them of course).
I routinely compare any of my DIYs' lately my unity/synergy's,
to Acoustat-X electrostats, and Meyer UPA-1P's with 650P subs. Along with phones, etc,
Now if you're buying furniture grade store bought...no question whatsoever that DIY rules (with experience).
If you're buying more prosound or "well engineered value-sound", it helps to love doing DIY for the sake of it (until you get to a big level of experience where it gets easier to compete with with solid engineering)
I try to keep myself honest by holding on to store bought speakers with strong reputations (and ones I really liked when I bought them of course).
I routinely compare any of my DIYs' lately my unity/synergy's,
to Acoustat-X electrostats, and Meyer UPA-1P's with 650P subs. Along with phones, etc,
Now if you're buying furniture grade store bought...no question whatsoever that DIY rules (with experience).
If you're buying more prosound or "well engineered value-sound", it helps to love doing DIY for the sake of it (until you get to a big level of experience where it gets easier to compete with with solid engineering)
Last edited:
Me too. It's also handy because it's small, so you can leave it next to the speaker you're testing and compare the in-room sound and frequency response to make sure you're not off in the weeds.
Trying to develop accurate speakers at home with no good reference is a lot harder, even if your measurement quality is pretty good.
Basically, if I can't do something better than the KEFs, I consider the project a failure. This isn't necessarily better than all aspects of the KEFs though.
It can vary, but years ago retailer markup to full price was typically more like 100% (50% margin).
But manufacturers have economies of scale that are very different than what a home builder has access to, so direct comparisons are not as straightforward as they might appear.
Last edited:
Here you are beginning to answer your own question. If you can buy the same drivers and horns as the "high end guys", then I think the answer is what you'd expect: DIY can certainly equal and exceed highly overpriced "high end" loudspeakers.
In one case that I'm aware of, when the manufacturer found out that DIYers were buying the drivers or horns, they quadrupled the price of the assemblies and required buyers to buy built-up units using drivers of inferior quality that are very overpriced, and use horns manufactured to their specifications by third-party fabricators to effectively stop the DIYers from going around the manufacturers and their extremely high overhead rates (or simply, just excessive prices).
In another case (from decades ago), the horn-loaded bass bins of DIYers and third party knockoffs were definitely inferior to what the company produced (i.e., the DIYers didn't have good plans for the design of the horn expansion and making sure the horn's low frequency cutoff was as low as the manufacturer's). But those days are over now that measurement microphones can be had for as little as $90-100 USD and the in-room measurement software is free (and much more capable than those capabilities of past audio instrumentation gear).
Generally any company that builds loudspeakers usually charges prices that make their employees and stockholders (if any) money enough to live comfortably (i.e., no one is typically working at minimum wage--even though these companies could hire such labor to cut their costs), and their prices usually do not reflect (way too high) the actual costs of materials and facilities and only the engineers and touch labor. Usually, you're also paying for a large standing army of accountants, financiers, sales staff, and personnel (which actually produce nothing for the consumer--but you're still going to pay for them in the price of the loudspeakers). Additionally, the boutique loudspeaker makers--usually called "high end", are not price competitive with the volume loudspeaker manufacturers, so all their perceived value is pushed to "intangibles" that the customer is encouraged to buy into--such as product image and branding.
Some manufacturers make their own drivers for their loudspeaker offerings and do not sell these drivers to DIYers. Same thing for horns. In these cases, you have no recourse but to pay their prices, as you have noted above. But these companies are not charging you a competitive price, rather a highly inflated one.
In general, however, with a little knowledge of how to design and build loudspeakers, one can usually and easily exceed the sound quality of manufacturers' loudspeakers, especially when getting those units dialed into their room acoustics using DSP, etc. This is 21st century hi-fi, and it is usually limited in sound quality only to the DIYer's own knowledge and abilities. And that is getting better by leaps and bound in some cases, especially on forums where intimate details of design and manufacturing knowledge basically come to anyone for free.
If you are cognizant of the DIY PC community of the 1980s-present, when it was discovered that the controlling monopolistic manufacturer held on to only the BIOS in ROM, and the functionality of that BIOS was quickly duplicated by a lowly third party and sold widely at bargain prices, the entire marketplace quickly started to multiply with DIYers and budget garage startups. They fairly quickly eclipsed the monopolistic manufacturer's offerings in performance and price. There are now very large PC companies spawned by this phenomenon. Same thing for freeware operating systems and apps.
Chris
The hobby is about having fun designing and building speakers. Any reasonable costing for tools, training, time, materials, parts, etc... will lead to the better engineered commercial speakers being better value. In addition we have to work with off-the-shelf parts whereas the better engineered speakers will have parts designed and manufactured for the purpose giving them a further edge.
In terms of technical performance the better DIY designs will likely fall a bit short of examples from Neumann, Genelec, and the like who are in the business of making speakers with a high technical performance at competive prices. Paying DIY prices for good quality parts and materials means this cost (never mind the other costs) is likely to be in the ballpark of the price of complete commercial examples.
On the other hand if instead of comparing against well engineered competively priced commercial speakers one compares against expensive audiophile speakers then things are quite different. Many, possibly most, though not all, are effectively very expensive DIY speakers in terms of their design, manufacture and technical performance. Well designed DIY speakers using off the shelf components can be competive in terms of technical performance and at much cheaper prices in terms of parts and materials costs. There are one or two exceptions though (e.g. beolab 90, MBL,...) where the engineering or manufacture is beyond what can be typically tackled by a hobbyist. So still a bit of care needed choosing which commercial speakers to compare against with our DIY examples.
From a higher end build standpoint, this sort of comparison has been kicked around alot. Its really a rather biased discussion due to the amount of emotional investment diy people put into their higher level designs (time and money wise), usually having invested alot of themselves into the finished product.
Based on how good the tools now are at most hobbyist's disposal, the chances of achieving very high performance compared to much higher priced, well engineered designs is very possible. We can definitely say the choices of drivers we currently have in the market won't be the limiting factor, as most of them are also being used in some rather expensive anf exclusive designs.
The amount of information and knowledge we have in open forums like this one is quite impressive, with some very seasoned veterans of speaker and audio design accessible at our fingertips, given we're appreciative and open to criticism.
You also have to consider, many speaker designs touted as being regarded as high end in nature, often are labeled that way by a handful of subjective reviewers with very strong opinions. Their product endorsements are highly regarded due to their affiliation with the press and media. Measurements and data help.weed through the opinions, but they often don't tell the whole story as to how the speakers actually sound in thr practical world in our own listening environments through our own gear. You'll likely be able to solve world hunger and peace before getting audio fanatics to agree on the subjective sound of speakers. There's just too much subjectivity involved with all of it. Measurements are just a small part of objective info, which usually isn't that revealing in how "good" something sounds by its own merit.
Chances are, the more established higher end manufacturers will be able to put together a minimal compromise speaker system with the experience and manufacturing expertise they have acess to. Their advantage is being able to have custom drive units made for them in large quantities by the top driver manufacturers. They often put together their own drivers in house from raw materials, so they aren't limited by the selection of off the shelf drivers sold in the diy market. That's a substantial advantage, which can simplify and cut crossover design cost, therefore allowing more resources to be allocated to the rest of the speaker design.
Us diy people are mainly limited by driver choice and cabinet design. That doesn't mean you can't achieve similar results to the high end companies. In all honesty, percentage wise I've heard more decent sounding diy apeaker designs than similarly priced commercial designs. That can be due to the diy design using higher priced components compared to the mass produced stuff, who have heavier mark ups on their drivers, needing to account for more overhead, marketing and labor costs to put in general terms.
I feel its a pretty even playing field between DIY and commercial designs, depending on how skilled, experienced and educated the DIY designer is. The area where it really matters is cabinet design, build and materials. Without a decent enclosure, the best avaliable chassis will be a waste of money. Same goes for the crossover, although modern DSP has come a long way, allowing much more flexibility integrating the speaker into the listening environment. This is an advantage over most commercial passive crossover designs.
Based on how good the tools now are at most hobbyist's disposal, the chances of achieving very high performance compared to much higher priced, well engineered designs is very possible. We can definitely say the choices of drivers we currently have in the market won't be the limiting factor, as most of them are also being used in some rather expensive anf exclusive designs.
The amount of information and knowledge we have in open forums like this one is quite impressive, with some very seasoned veterans of speaker and audio design accessible at our fingertips, given we're appreciative and open to criticism.
You also have to consider, many speaker designs touted as being regarded as high end in nature, often are labeled that way by a handful of subjective reviewers with very strong opinions. Their product endorsements are highly regarded due to their affiliation with the press and media. Measurements and data help.weed through the opinions, but they often don't tell the whole story as to how the speakers actually sound in thr practical world in our own listening environments through our own gear. You'll likely be able to solve world hunger and peace before getting audio fanatics to agree on the subjective sound of speakers. There's just too much subjectivity involved with all of it. Measurements are just a small part of objective info, which usually isn't that revealing in how "good" something sounds by its own merit.
Chances are, the more established higher end manufacturers will be able to put together a minimal compromise speaker system with the experience and manufacturing expertise they have acess to. Their advantage is being able to have custom drive units made for them in large quantities by the top driver manufacturers. They often put together their own drivers in house from raw materials, so they aren't limited by the selection of off the shelf drivers sold in the diy market. That's a substantial advantage, which can simplify and cut crossover design cost, therefore allowing more resources to be allocated to the rest of the speaker design.
Us diy people are mainly limited by driver choice and cabinet design. That doesn't mean you can't achieve similar results to the high end companies. In all honesty, percentage wise I've heard more decent sounding diy apeaker designs than similarly priced commercial designs. That can be due to the diy design using higher priced components compared to the mass produced stuff, who have heavier mark ups on their drivers, needing to account for more overhead, marketing and labor costs to put in general terms.
I feel its a pretty even playing field between DIY and commercial designs, depending on how skilled, experienced and educated the DIY designer is. The area where it really matters is cabinet design, build and materials. Without a decent enclosure, the best avaliable chassis will be a waste of money. Same goes for the crossover, although modern DSP has come a long way, allowing much more flexibility integrating the speaker into the listening environment. This is an advantage over most commercial passive crossover designs.
Good question (see what I did there?)
Are they building units with an exceeding flat response, an emphasis on detail/clarity, and an effort above all to put "presence of music" in the room?
For all I know they are designing them like automotive coaxials that are super bright and sound good only in the shop, yet have horrendous reflections once they are actually inside of a vehicle.
I would contest that some hi end loudspeakers using off the shelf drivers available to anyone are really diy systems wrapped in boutique marketing. They are made to order often in a garage. Typical hi end loudspeaker are from small organisations with low volumes. Therefore the prices are high to cover overheads. Outrageous designs are used to convey the often very high prices. Consumers reviewers are used for PR.
To answer your question both commercial consumer and diy loudspeaker have strengths and weaknesses.
Commercial consumer loudspeaker are as a rule constrained by manufacturing costs, competing alternatives and the need to be somehow different from anything else so it sells. But a reputable brand has strong R&D, they have to deliver on the promise and the drivers are often custom manufactured or made in house. The higher priced consumer loudspeakers are more refined in components and finishes. Examples are the JBL project DD67000.
Rarely are engineers give a free hand to build a statement consumer system. B&W, Kef, Monitor Audio and JBL are notable exceptions where flagship statement systems have been manufactured in volume.
Diy loudspeaker are for the most part the opposite in context of the above.
The process of design, components cost and implementation is completely undisciplined.
This means a diy loudspeaker has no real budget or that it had to fit the company image or the market research.
The weakness of diy loudspeakers are in the R&D, and development of prototypes or a final implementation. Most often a diy builder will outline his / her loudspeaker based on a collection of components that are acquired before any R&D as in actual driver measurements or simulations. Diy builders seldom design from specification set at the outset. The outcome is therefore unknown until the loudspeaker is assembled. This makes determining whether the loudspeaker meets the users needs or expectations. Sometimes it doesn’t work input or is ever finished.
To answer your question both commercial consumer and diy loudspeaker have strengths and weaknesses.
Commercial consumer loudspeaker are as a rule constrained by manufacturing costs, competing alternatives and the need to be somehow different from anything else so it sells. But a reputable brand has strong R&D, they have to deliver on the promise and the drivers are often custom manufactured or made in house. The higher priced consumer loudspeakers are more refined in components and finishes. Examples are the JBL project DD67000.
Rarely are engineers give a free hand to build a statement consumer system. B&W, Kef, Monitor Audio and JBL are notable exceptions where flagship statement systems have been manufactured in volume.
Diy loudspeaker are for the most part the opposite in context of the above.
The process of design, components cost and implementation is completely undisciplined.
This means a diy loudspeaker has no real budget or that it had to fit the company image or the market research.
The weakness of diy loudspeakers are in the R&D, and development of prototypes or a final implementation. Most often a diy builder will outline his / her loudspeaker based on a collection of components that are acquired before any R&D as in actual driver measurements or simulations. Diy builders seldom design from specification set at the outset. The outcome is therefore unknown until the loudspeaker is assembled. This makes determining whether the loudspeaker meets the users needs or expectations. Sometimes it doesn’t work input or is ever finished.
I can give a more recent example of the markup required to end up with the High End sell price. Linkwitz of speaker crossover design fame, developed a boxless speaker using dynamic drivers, even the bass was a special high excusion woofer. My friend build a system. His cost was the purchase of the drivers at madisound for about $2200 back then. The cost of the electronic xover for about $500 and then the cost of the exotic wood for the speaker panels. he had the panels done by a carpenter, his own labor included the sanding , staining and varnishing the wood. And of course assembling the system. There was/is a company that produced a ready made system exactly like his. Their sell is 12k to 15k depending on wood type and other options. So this gives you an idea on what the markup is.
There is a lot more to the manufacturing costs of a product than just what the parts cost.
Facility rent, insurance, salaries, test equipment, advertising, financing, etc.
Facility rent, insurance, salaries, test equipment, advertising, financing, etc.
OEM’s like Tang Bang and SB Acoustics have been manufacturing drivers for Monitor Audio, Linn Sondek and other hifi brands for decades. The skill of the designer/ engineer is in producing a loudspeaker that sounds good at its price point using low cost drivers (made in volume with retail margins you see on Scan Speak drivers).
In that sense the diy person is paying a premium for a premium brand name driver.
It would be an interesting initiative like a Diyaudio.com group buy to leverage a quantity buy at a discount.
It would be even more interesting to see a collective diy loudspeaker design with well established specification, collaborative R&D and prototype development.
Then we diy souls would have a very good diy loudspeaker as a known design
In that sense the diy person is paying a premium for a premium brand name driver.
It would be an interesting initiative like a Diyaudio.com group buy to leverage a quantity buy at a discount.
It would be even more interesting to see a collective diy loudspeaker design with well established specification, collaborative R&D and prototype development.
Then we diy souls would have a very good diy loudspeaker as a known design
Entry level DIYS speaker are in most cases not worth the work. The industry is much better in putting cheap chassis into a cheap cabinets for mediocre results than the average hobbyist. At this level it is simply a hobby.
When you start to use high quality speaker from good brands, not just the entry level models, you will soon reach a level where the same speaker will cost you about 10 times as much, finished at a high end speaker shop. The problem is, this means you need to get or design a solid crossover and must be able to build a cabinet of matching quality. If you are an "insider" to the hobby and able to buy sell out's and occasions, you can build outstanding value for very little money. In such a case you normaly have spend a decade in this hobby, as a minimum.
If we talk about a small high end, expensive two way, you will not find parts for more than 300-500$ inside. This includes overpriced crossover parts, which are the great ripoff in the DIYS market. Building cabinets is always the same price for wood and glue, independent of the chassis quality. If you go for good industry parts for the crossover, without any audible loss of quality, you can spent twice as much money on the chassis. Think about it before ordering 10 times overpriced Mundorf or Jantzen Boutique parts. An Epcos or Wima capacitor is just as good. Just not sold with so much marketing Voodoo smoke. Even the professionals that know better, use (often the cheapest!) Boutique brands in their builds, because the customer demands it. Not because it sounds even 1% better.
The number of people that are able to do a decend crossovers by them selves has increased with the available measuring gear and advanced, free simulation software. I paid about 30 times as much for my first measuring kit than what it would cost today, for a much more capable system.
Anyway, the crossover is, followed by baffle design, the greatest challenge in building a good speaker. That is why I always advise to pick a good kit for a start and not to choose expensive chassis and then try to design and maybe simulate a crossover, cabinet etc. from scratch. The result will be only a fraction of the drivers potential when a newbie starts off like this. If you are a wise beginner, build one good kit, then pick for the second project even better components and try to match your first build. That way you will understand how hard it is to build a good speaker. I know "wise" and "beginner" don't go together in 99.9% of cases.
When you start to use high quality speaker from good brands, not just the entry level models, you will soon reach a level where the same speaker will cost you about 10 times as much, finished at a high end speaker shop. The problem is, this means you need to get or design a solid crossover and must be able to build a cabinet of matching quality. If you are an "insider" to the hobby and able to buy sell out's and occasions, you can build outstanding value for very little money. In such a case you normaly have spend a decade in this hobby, as a minimum.
If we talk about a small high end, expensive two way, you will not find parts for more than 300-500$ inside. This includes overpriced crossover parts, which are the great ripoff in the DIYS market. Building cabinets is always the same price for wood and glue, independent of the chassis quality. If you go for good industry parts for the crossover, without any audible loss of quality, you can spent twice as much money on the chassis. Think about it before ordering 10 times overpriced Mundorf or Jantzen Boutique parts. An Epcos or Wima capacitor is just as good. Just not sold with so much marketing Voodoo smoke. Even the professionals that know better, use (often the cheapest!) Boutique brands in their builds, because the customer demands it. Not because it sounds even 1% better.
The number of people that are able to do a decend crossovers by them selves has increased with the available measuring gear and advanced, free simulation software. I paid about 30 times as much for my first measuring kit than what it would cost today, for a much more capable system.
Anyway, the crossover is, followed by baffle design, the greatest challenge in building a good speaker. That is why I always advise to pick a good kit for a start and not to choose expensive chassis and then try to design and maybe simulate a crossover, cabinet etc. from scratch. The result will be only a fraction of the drivers potential when a newbie starts off like this. If you are a wise beginner, build one good kit, then pick for the second project even better components and try to match your first build. That way you will understand how hard it is to build a good speaker. I know "wise" and "beginner" don't go together in 99.9% of cases.
OEMs have a huge advantage over DIY with cabinetry and woodworking due to being able to create more elaborate, purpose fit enclosures with chaper materials with the aid of sophisticated manufacturing tooling and processes. CAD designed CNC woodwork and 3D scanning/ printing have become more affordable to and accessible by the DIY.
Its no longer necessary to use labor intensive methods to make elaborate baffle designs, optimized for minimal diffraction, reflections, resonances and compound shapes/curves. We're no longer limited to making simple rectangular boxes.
The simulation tools we now have (most of them being available for free) are pretty amazing. 15 to 20 yrs ago we would have had to pay alot.of money for a fraction of the design power the newer software has.
Its no longer necessary to use labor intensive methods to make elaborate baffle designs, optimized for minimal diffraction, reflections, resonances and compound shapes/curves. We're no longer limited to making simple rectangular boxes.
The simulation tools we now have (most of them being available for free) are pretty amazing. 15 to 20 yrs ago we would have had to pay alot.of money for a fraction of the design power the newer software has.
Have been buying quality audio equipment for 60 years and, in the last 5, have started building lots of DIY kits from this site. Have three stories related to this thread's topic.
First, just finished the new Pearl 3 phonopre designed by Colburn. It is superb and easily eclipses the two store-bought phono pres that I was using – an E.A.R. 834 and a Slee Accession MC. The difference in audio quality is not even close.
Second, visited a Best Buy Magnolia showroom this last January and received an in-depth listening session with five orchestral pieces I use for system evaluation – through their McIntosh and B&W system including pres, amps, and speakers that run roughly $80k. The sound was a certain Mcintosh type that I refer to as “politely sophisticated.” The room was heavily tuned and superb. As a result, the soundstage was excellent showing off orchestral placement accurately. Nothing wrong with the system and it was pleasant indeed.
Immediately went home and listened to the same five pieces on my home system that has a RME DAC, custom DIY preamp with Coburn's linestage, Aleph 30 monoblocks (Thatcher's clone kit) feeding Tekton Double Impact speakers.
Again, the overall audio quality was not even close. The DIY system had significantly better timbral accuracy, much better instrument placement and separation, and a significantly more realistic image. The one area the Magnolia system bettered the DIY one was in soundstage breadth – and I attribute this to the carefully tuned room.
My DIY system's cost was about $10k (this comparable portion that is).
Third, just finished a bedroom system with CSS home made speakers and needed a preamp to handle analog tape media (=cassettes and R2R). Have an extra DIY preamp with individual L/R volume controls that is ideal for older tape. Plugged it in and it sounded excellent on tape sources and OK on DAC feeds from a computer running JRiver.
Then, saw that Emotiva had just started offering a DAC/analog pre, the XDA-3, that incuded HDMI Arc. This works with my connected Samsung TV and so I ordered one.
The new DAC in the XDA-3 was a significant improvement and the analog signal path (2 inputs available) was very good – almost as good as the DIY pre. More importantly, the Emotiva includes a full featured remote that makes controlling the entire system easy. In this case, the store-bought choice won out.
Have lots of other stories with different endings but would suggest that, in general, well-made DIY kits are likely to supersede store-bought equivalents. They can be expensive to build – especially if you use high-quality parts. In addition, the tools and parts you need to produce the best results cost a bunch; in my case thousands of dollars of shop stuff. So in my case, it is not the cost, but rather the quality and the custom designs, that are pre-eminent.
Plus, when you start doing a lot of it, building electronic equipment is fun.
First, just finished the new Pearl 3 phonopre designed by Colburn. It is superb and easily eclipses the two store-bought phono pres that I was using – an E.A.R. 834 and a Slee Accession MC. The difference in audio quality is not even close.
Second, visited a Best Buy Magnolia showroom this last January and received an in-depth listening session with five orchestral pieces I use for system evaluation – through their McIntosh and B&W system including pres, amps, and speakers that run roughly $80k. The sound was a certain Mcintosh type that I refer to as “politely sophisticated.” The room was heavily tuned and superb. As a result, the soundstage was excellent showing off orchestral placement accurately. Nothing wrong with the system and it was pleasant indeed.
Immediately went home and listened to the same five pieces on my home system that has a RME DAC, custom DIY preamp with Coburn's linestage, Aleph 30 monoblocks (Thatcher's clone kit) feeding Tekton Double Impact speakers.
Again, the overall audio quality was not even close. The DIY system had significantly better timbral accuracy, much better instrument placement and separation, and a significantly more realistic image. The one area the Magnolia system bettered the DIY one was in soundstage breadth – and I attribute this to the carefully tuned room.
My DIY system's cost was about $10k (this comparable portion that is).
Third, just finished a bedroom system with CSS home made speakers and needed a preamp to handle analog tape media (=cassettes and R2R). Have an extra DIY preamp with individual L/R volume controls that is ideal for older tape. Plugged it in and it sounded excellent on tape sources and OK on DAC feeds from a computer running JRiver.
Then, saw that Emotiva had just started offering a DAC/analog pre, the XDA-3, that incuded HDMI Arc. This works with my connected Samsung TV and so I ordered one.
The new DAC in the XDA-3 was a significant improvement and the analog signal path (2 inputs available) was very good – almost as good as the DIY pre. More importantly, the Emotiva includes a full featured remote that makes controlling the entire system easy. In this case, the store-bought choice won out.
Have lots of other stories with different endings but would suggest that, in general, well-made DIY kits are likely to supersede store-bought equivalents. They can be expensive to build – especially if you use high-quality parts. In addition, the tools and parts you need to produce the best results cost a bunch; in my case thousands of dollars of shop stuff. So in my case, it is not the cost, but rather the quality and the custom designs, that are pre-eminent.
Plus, when you start doing a lot of it, building electronic equipment is fun.
high end has big profit margins....
diy can save some money, but it can also be more expensive than high end,
high enders buy piece parts in the thousands, diy just a few,
so here alone makes diy more expensive...
unit cost (direct material and labor) of high enders are very cheap compared to diy it can be higher..
Last edited: