How better is a Turntable compared to a CD?

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The Pacific Northwest Audio Society does comparisons at least once a year and sometimes more often than that on some of the finest SOTA gear (and systems) in the World. So far, LP's have always sounded better in every comparison that we've done.

I realize that there will be people here that haven't seen this before, but you can go back a number of years and read about it. These events are well attended and hardly secret.

Best Regards,
TerryO

Any proof, any concrete data, measurements, links?
 
this is what one need for a good dac. No filter the transformer is a bandwith filter.
DAC.jpg


SOWTER DAC I/V TRANSFORMERS

Line Output | Lundahl Transformers

Using Sowter 9545 (1+1:5+5) into 5842, battery bias, choke loading, Salas SSHV2 for power. PCM1794A in mono mode, one per channel. Work in progress, will increase FS output level a couple of dB, and increase BW slightly.
 
I never had a goldring TT. I had a Dual now have a SL1700 and the TD124. I use a goldring 1012gx MM. Had X1 mc back in the eighties a denon DL160, shure m97xe, grado red. But the goldring 1012 is the best sounding card I have.

I have just bought a dynafox tpr2. I was building my own RIAA for mc with lundalh transformers I did not finish that till now. My other low noise preamp had a defect so I wanted to try the dynafox did put in bigger MKP to shift the cutoff frequency lower. Not much difference with what i had but nice with the external powersupply would not do much better in my own design.
Although I hope some improvement with the lundahl transformers.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


The Riaa I use from 1987 is these one is very low noise in combination with high output MC, I used PP in the network.
223196d1305570869-diy-phono-stage-gives-great-results-mijn-riaa-phono.gif


I use a class D amplifier and my own design hybrid KT66 PSE C-core OPT. There for I am building the Riaa with lundahl transformers.



And this speaker. dipole with horn xo 500hz super tight placement of soundstage. 94dB Wmtr 30-20000Hz
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285121d1338486144-photoshoot-ob-mk1-least-they-sound-good-schermafbeelding-2012-05-31-om-17.20.32.png


My profession is electronics and I build as a hobby my own audio from the mid eighties, got enough experience and did hear also other diy stuff. And also expensive commercial audio through the years. So I do think I know where I am talking about.

Awesome sir!
 
I have a sony SACD player had a Denon 3930 SACD player. And a philips DVD recorder. And a marantz CD17.

A low cost chinese dac can sound even better with the right power supply and wiring capacitors and opamps.
I have to try output-transformers in the dac as replacement for opamps and capacitors.

Burr-Brown PCM-1792 DACs, in a differential balanced configuration (got the same Universal player).

* Got a bunch of Sony SACD players too. ...Pioneer, Oppo, Marantz, ...

Do you prefer LPs or SACDs (CDs)? ...The sound, overall, and the music choice, and the quality of the recordings (best world record labels), and the jump factor, and the impact, and the dynamics (micro & macro), and the dark pitch black background, and the ambiance, the air, the soundstage, the imaging, the height, the light.
...Without any prejudice, no bias and not money related.
 
I had an enjoyable moment comparing vinyl to cs on a customer's modest system this week. He is an obsessive lp/cd buyer, and buys/researches the best quality music available, and buys both vinyl and cd of the same recording if he can.
In his small music room, he has B&W 805s, connected via Analysis Plus cables to a Mcintosh MA6300, with a Oppo BDP-105 and a Pro-Ject 2Xperience Classic, Sumiko Blue-Point cartridge via a NAD phono preamp.
He asked me which component he should upgrade next, and I asked him what he listened to more, vinyl or cd, and which one he thought sounded better. He listens about 50/50, and had no firm judgement which sounded better to him, but leaned towards the cd sounding better.
I had him select some favorite albums with vocals and acoustical guitar, that he also had in gold cd...... and cued them up. I switched lps several times, and occasionally pointed out specifics to listen to; "which one sounds like a real guitar"?; which voice sounds more realistic"?; "can you hear the leading pluck on the strings of the bass guitar"? etc, etc.
It was fun to observe his little journey.
In the end, on his system, it was clear that the turntable provided the most enjoyable, realistic music of the sources available.
Great fun.

Most accurate too? ...Did you listen to some Classical music from SACDs and compare it to its counterpart on an LP?

Did you listen to some Jazz music on CDs from ECM record label or Channel Classics or Reference Recordings and compare them to their albums?

Did you listen to some Blues on APO or/and AudioQuest record labels from CDs? ...And compare them to their album's equivalents?
 
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Here a pic of my pride 1966 td124 witch I restored a few years ago. Rega rb301 with Van den Hul tone arm wiring.
226672d1307803995-td124-mk1-rb301-new-plinth-service-schermafbeelding-2011-06-11-om-16.31.23.jpg

Very nice table Helmuth, I've attached a picture of my mid-fi machine below. Slate plinth set up for constrained layer damping, but I am not using it. I refurbished the table a couple of years ago. (Late TD-124/II 1968 or so, barely used in its former life.) Shick arm, SPU Royal N, Lundahl LL1941 suts.. I have also run the Meister Silver on this table, but frankly the Royal N is substantially better, and even without the SPU head shell I prefer it.

I am not sure about the DL-301, it certainly does not get the accolades the DL-103 has (I've had several). I found the ZU repackaged version of the DL-103 quite good, a few problems with sibilants female vocals, and audible mis-tracking on some material with extreme HF - this was on an SME 3009 Series II as well as my Schick. I am not sure whether the RB301 effective arm mass is a good match or not to the DL-103. Synergy is obviously important if you want things to play well together.

I hear ticks and pops cited as a frequent downfall of vinyl, I take care of my records, keep them scrupulously clean, use a recently acquired VPI RCM to clean them and am generally careful. Just wanted to say I have relatively few issues with this problem - a very few records I got from my Dad and the public library system are a little noisier than I would prefer. (Anything with more than an occasional tick or pop will get replaced with a quiet copy unless very rare.)
 

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These digital source are outdated and even back then they were the WORSE sounding.
I had marantz CD 17, 17 mkII, 63 KIS and others. Had the sony for a while.
These things were real crap even back then. Bloated bass, not controlled. Bloody midrange and lack of resolution on the highs.
If you still have those...:happy2:

Even iPad will sound significantly better nowadays!

I said that already, I don't use digital anymore as at this level makes no more sense anymore.
I used esoteric SACD, audio research, other the the other marantzs listed, marantz sa7.
You think is enough ? 😱

Esoteric SACD, which model player sir?

* Do you still prefer playing your LPs?
 
The dCS is behind analog too , i know maybe we should spend more than 100k , to beat analog ..🙂

I asked Sy and got alot of arm wavering , so less go again , explain to me the advantage of digital over analog in relation to noise , dynamic range , Yada, yada, taking into account the avg listening room noise floor is 42-48 db and digital slams the brakes at 0db ..

dCS, is that a turntable?
 
I am not an exper on recording, so I can't really say anything on the 0dB recording point for digital.
However it is easy to understand, and only takes some listening, to understand the technical basic advance of digital, which are noise floor, distortion, speed accuracy and repeatbility.
I mean vinyl when well implemented mitigates a lot these issues, to a point IMHO, where the ear can't really discriminate on that anymore.
That is when vinyl becomes really engaging.

Dither, jitter, asynchronous, clock, power supplies, transformers, quad-balanced fully differential, wiring, circuit boards, short paths, best parts, sync, synergy, ...
 
Burr-Brown PCM-1792 DACs, in a differential balanced configuration (got the same Universal player).

* Got a bunch of Sony SACD players too. ...Pioneer, Oppo, Marantz, ...

Do you prefer LPs or SACDs (CDs)? ...The sound, overall, and the music choice, and the quality of the recordings (best world record labels), and the jump factor, and the impact, and the dynamics (micro & macro), and the dark pitch black background, and the ambiance, the air, the soundstage, the imaging, the height, the light.
...Without any prejudice, no bias and not money related.
I did try if sacd is better then normal cd format I can not hear significant difference. Only the newer generation DAC and analog circuit power-supply helps to improve performance.

There is more air in vinyl but the digital soundstage picture is very stable. And sounds accurate vinyl is more loose I would say lively but less accurate.
 
Using Sowter 9545 (1+1:5+5) into 5842, battery bias, choke loading, Salas SSHV2 for power. PCM1794A in mono mode, one per channel. Work in progress, will increase FS output level a couple of dB, and increase BW slightly.

Sounds great Kevin do you post the build.

Do you also have a transformer volume control. These help to save micro detail because it is no attenuation but power transformation so on the lower level the voltage will not be influenced by the resistor-load or capacitive load. And you will have all detail preserved. And no coloration of the sound by capacitors.

SOWTER ATTENUATOR TRANSFORMERS TVC VOLUME CONTROL
 
I had him select some favorite albums with vocals and acoustical guitar, that he also had in gold cd...... and cued them up. I switched lps several times, and occasionally pointed out specifics to listen to; "which one sounds like a real guitar"?; which voice sounds more realistic"?; "can you hear the leading pluck on the strings of the bass guitar"? etc, etc.
It was fun to observe his little journey. In the end, on his system, it was clear that the turntable provided the most enjoyable, realistic music of the sources available.
Great fun.
Let me have a kick at this too.

Even if you did the greatest possible SOTA mic testing (or other set-up strategies) of a system, it doesn't mean the sound of that system to human ears doesn't favour vinyl.

I wonder if you could you have introduced adjustments which would have made the CD-borne guitar sound better? (See my dust-up with TerryO.)

Not to be critical of your contribution to the "education" of your friend, but I am willing to think his vast experience in comparisons (slightly favouring CDs) should be given more weight than his brief period of your tutelage (favouring vinyl).

Ben
 
I did try if sacd is better then normal cd format I can not hear significant difference. Only the newer generation DAC and analog circuit power-supply helps to improve performance.

There is more air in vinyl but the digital soundstage picture is very stable. And sounds accurate vinyl is more loose I would say lively but less accurate.

Pure DSD stream; any opinion?

* You must have ultra high-end gear to not be able to hear much difference between SACD (DSD) and CD (PCM 16/44).

And your vinyl rig must be extremely well vibration-free isolated and super well calibrated to hear more air than from SACD (or CD). ...I mean from quality recordings.

Accuracy is a tough denominator, and accurately unimportant in the world we live in; peace is (pleasantness).

And everything is loose, even reel-to-reel, and reelity.
 
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