Ok let me try to reply:
1) just give a go to the new Marantz 11 server music DAC, you will likely be surprised. It is in the $3K range I believe
2) rest of the system matters a lot!! In order to take full advantage of a hi-rez source, your system has to be capable of handling high dynamic, SNR, frequency extension and so on. If your system is not that great, you are unlikely going to have any significant difference i.e. reliable result
3) I haven't listened to the exact combination, but please don't believe in black magic. I have heard the Denon 103 in many different configurations (many...I have owned it a long time in the past, have friends who have it too) and in all configuration it sounded pretty much the same. It is a good bang for the buck kind of thing...but the 103 lacks of dynamic, resolution, colors and again, if the 103 is your best bet to take down a $2/3K music server, I would suggest you to give a closer listening to the digital and especially look the the key parameters that a hi-end system must have!
Yes....good....I think this debate is extremely fun too! 😉
😎
yep you are very much correct!!
And that is why only a hi-end analogue system could try to compete with that.
Most of the cheap system I have listened in the past have same problem, very high frequency distortion, saturation from both cartridge and phono.
Inner grooves sounding worse than outer.
I mean...it is just nuts... I could understand with a CD from 15 years ago, where sound was so bad that it didn't matter if it was quiet or speed stable or low distortion...it just sounded compressed.
Nowadays hi-rez systems, sound very much alike vinyl in the sense of freedom of sound, imaging and delicacy. In order to take that down, you are going to have to come out with the big guns!!! 😀
I haven't heard anyone that disagreed about analog/digetal after being to one of our Club Meetings where we did the comparisons.
We take a lot of pride in doing unbiased and very controlled comparisons.
The R2R decks vary from one owner to another. Many club members use pro-quality Studio Decks with custom electronics and some members actually have several of them in their listening room.
If it wasn't so darn expensive, we'd probably all be using R2R tape...it's that good!
Best Regards,
TerryO
Interesting....hopefully one day I will be able to get a 15ips R2R player and I will re-do all the preamp section.
Unfortunately though, I would think it is hard to find original tapes.
Regarding the comparison Digital to Analogue, I would be interested to know more what is the test that most impressed you? what was the set up, if you can allow to let us have these information.
Is the club opened to anybody? Where is it located?
SY,
I'm pretty sure that if the Masters aren't the same, there would certainly be some very expensive Legal Problems for someone. We've been at this for many years, the use of the masters has been paid for and our people are very well known within the industry.
Just a peek: Our people are in the High-End of the recording Industry. These comparisons include members like Winston Ma (First Impression Music), Gary L. Koh (Genesis Loudspeakers), Bruce Brown (Puget Sound Studios & HD Tracks) and finally, friends like Dan Schmalle ("Doc" Bottlehead and part owner of The Tape Project).
Our friend, (Bud Purvine) can authenicate "the truth of my words."
Best Regards,
TerryO
Why? Record companies remaster stuff all the time. The music is their property. The classic example is the "evolution" of Graceland, well documented in Loudness Wars and in Jan Didden's BAF presentation a couple years back. If you don't have specific knowledge that the masters are the same, you're missing the elephant in the room.
There appears be confusion between what one means by "Master" and "the same recording." Both an LP and CD (and cassette and 8-track) will originate in the same recording of the same performance, but as SY says, what and how much processing (compression, EQ, more compression, limiting, etc.) is done between that original recording and what the consumer gets can vary a lot depending on both release format and "edition."
I'm holding off for the "Super Duper Remastered-In-64-bit" release. It's sure to have a dynamic range of 0.64 bits.
If you like, sure, I can't do anything about that. But... before we draw any sweeping conclusions about format quality, I think it's important to know that you're comparing the same thing between two formats, rather than comparing two different things, each in a different format. You've stated that your listening tests were well controlled, but have you controlled the single most important factor, and if so, how did you do it?
When I said "Master", I meant the original Master, not a copy or Dub of the Master, which to the people that I've mentioned would have been unacceptable.
Thanks for explaining exactly what I meant in the first place.
The question still stands- what were each of the format versions mastered from and how did you determine this? There are often multiple masters, especially with modern recordings. It's not just a matter of generation. It's also the creation of masters from the raw mixes.
Ok, fair enough.
What I'm saying is that all formats used in our comparisons were made from the same Master Tape by the same people. At one time we used a master tape to produce a number of different formats on disc(s) just to listen for any improvements (or failings) as the formats changed. (One format per disc).
FWIW, many of the formats were experimental and were never released to the public.
Have a great day folks!
Good fun yes🙂
I can say that when the DL103 is modified correctly and used with a well matched tonearm it becomes a heavy hitter. There are many avenues for this,
I chose a Zu 103 and use it on a Schick arm with Cenemag SUT and a Hagerman Coronet tube phono stage.
So far I still think vinyl wins, but I am currently putting together serious digital system to find out.... but it is in its infancy.😀
cheers
Ed
I've been working with CD's, Music DVD, DXD, 96K/24b, 192K/24b, 384K/32b, Thorens TD147, Mitchel Gyro / SME3009, Mitchel ORB / SME-V, SME20/2 and SME30/2 as well as various master tapes upto 2 inch multi trac's
I simply listened to the music where in a lot of cases I've got the master's of the reccords and/or the fimal mix in native studio format.
i've also listened to at least 10 different flavours of DAC's.
To my ears, Vinyl will beat the digital stuff as long as the chain was totally analog. there is a similar performance with the tape source.
There are some caviates...Vinyl, while played back, typically has tracking distortion and the re is some noise as well.
Digital reproduction tends to lose imaging depth due to jitter (time smearing) and has a bright edge on the music.
When I loose all research and knowledge on an evening where its peacefull and quiet, Grabbed some cheese and whine. My preference alway's is a vinyl disk on my good old SME.
I've not come across a digital system that reproduces the music with such joy as my analog setup.
Going back to my cheese and whine now. Cheers!
PS. I do love the ease of a music server in my digital setup. I's the only thing my kids use (and are allowed to use).
I simply listened to the music where in a lot of cases I've got the master's of the reccords and/or the fimal mix in native studio format.
i've also listened to at least 10 different flavours of DAC's.
To my ears, Vinyl will beat the digital stuff as long as the chain was totally analog. there is a similar performance with the tape source.
There are some caviates...Vinyl, while played back, typically has tracking distortion and the re is some noise as well.
Digital reproduction tends to lose imaging depth due to jitter (time smearing) and has a bright edge on the music.
When I loose all research and knowledge on an evening where its peacefull and quiet, Grabbed some cheese and whine. My preference alway's is a vinyl disk on my good old SME.
I've not come across a digital system that reproduces the music with such joy as my analog setup.
Going back to my cheese and whine now. Cheers!
PS. I do love the ease of a music server in my digital setup. I's the only thing my kids use (and are allowed to use).
You got all the points. Vinyl also have to be mastered and process with full analogue chain from original master tape, that is why I love the music matters reissues..
I also agree on enjoyment with vinyl, but I still stand for high level analogue set up to mitigate the high frequency distortions and speed inconsistency.
IMO linear tracking arm is the only way to get the vinyl in the ball park, eliminating a lot of its problem.
Then a performing cartridge with advanced profile to minimize surface noise.
Base will be important to allow the tracker section yo extract all the information in the grooves at a stable speed. Finally the phono will deliver the information in the best way without saturation, dynamic range shortage and low noise floor.
Enjoy your set up 😎
You do realize the 103 is the basis for alot of highend cartridges and i can say with confidence that you had the wrong arm combination for the 103, its pretty difficult to get the right arm weight and stiffness, next is a good MC pre-amp and cables, a cheap mod is a wooden body , this cartridge sounds nothing like you describe , its the same issue some have with Grado's , well i can tell you Grados have plenty pace and weight when done right ...
The 103/103r low output requires a good pre-pre , it lives and dies by this
Ok let me tell you, there is no black magic but not especially luck to stumble across the 2 perfect matching components.
Understand, DL 103 is no different from other low output cartridge, i.e. Requires same amount of gain.
Well, whether you have a SUT or a MC phono equalizer, you will need to get same amount of gain.
I can tell you that the $1K MC Ortofon cart will kill the Denon modified or not! Sorry to break your dream, but just try a better cartridge on a better system and you will understand what I am saying.
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