I agree, and this has very little to do with sound quality! Thats why we have very expensive gear that sounds bad.
Moderators, please help! kill this thread!
I can't believe this thread still goes on and on...All possible arguments have been heard, discussed---whatever. Archive the thread for those that want it.
This is not just for this thread, but for many that have grown to become a huge presence on diyAudio, and must cost something to maintain.
I have to believe that no one with two good ears can't make up their own minds, and leave it at that. Whether "pro" or "con" for or against the LP and it's reproduction or CD reproduction, it doesn't matter. Too much digital ink has been spilt on this one topic, whether here, other forums or the more traditional hifi media.
I can't believe this thread still goes on and on...All possible arguments have been heard, discussed---whatever. Archive the thread for those that want it.
This is not just for this thread, but for many that have grown to become a huge presence on diyAudio, and must cost something to maintain.
I have to believe that no one with two good ears can't make up their own minds, and leave it at that. Whether "pro" or "con" for or against the LP and it's reproduction or CD reproduction, it doesn't matter. Too much digital ink has been spilt on this one topic, whether here, other forums or the more traditional hifi media.
I'm getting notifications, so I must have posted something earlier in this thread. I'm almost afraid to go back to see what I said, as it might not make much sense. As much a fan of all this stuff I am, I don't have the "high end" experience that so many others here have. I have what I think are half-decent ears, but I don't get much chance to hear Really Good Stuff. If only there were a Burning Turntable event in the Atlanta area...
As far as the cost of this thread, I'm really enjoying reading it, and the pros and cons of each. I'm a little dissapointed when I read subjective words such as "this has more splash" or "that has more pizazz," as I'm always looking for technical content that might help me learn something. I'm also closely following the ongoing linear tonearm thread, and there was a recently active one or two on turntable design and platter drive. I may yet build something.
Hosting stuff like this online is (relatively) cheap, and getting cheaper all the time. As I heard decades ago about going against newspaper editors, "never argue with someone who buys [digital] ink by the barrel."
Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but I think you are dreaming! That set up will never even come close to a $2K music server not to mention a $3K!
Do you mind telling me the rest of your system (preamp, power amp, speakers and all interconnects from cart to speaker)?
Lets see, new cartridge $85, new record changer with arm $59, washer to level cartridge to the record $0.004, used disco mixer $15, parts to make disco mixer civilized $25. Power amp works on either digital or analog.
CD player, $59, same disco mixer relays it to the power amp. Not that big a difference. I lucked out on the turntable, but all kind of mid range LP turntables are showing up at the charity resale shop with bad belts or drive wheels, $15. No good cartridges yet, mostly low end shows up used.
Ok, is this kind of a joke? I am referring to things that are a bit more performing! At that level of things they all sound the same!! ...i.e. Badddd
I do like vinyl despite all it's fault's, especially 12" singles, they tend to sound a bit more like live music when done well. After playing several of these then switching back to digital it seems a little bit flat, more processed & a bit less engaging - even when done well. I came to the conclusion that this is probably why most DJ's seem to prefer vinyl. IMO lot's of people don't pay enough attention to cartridge overhang when setting one up. ALL the angles are important.
The thing is I can't tolerate listening to vinyl through headphones, that amount of noise so close to my ears is bloody awful.
The thing is I can't tolerate listening to vinyl through headphones, that amount of noise so close to my ears is bloody awful.
Amazedly long thread, has anyone been shot or beaten yet?...LOL
The key to vinyl is three fold and usually requires time and money to get it right, but when it is its pretty damned good.
Matching tone arms and cartridges is the biggest things, and most people don't get it or only get close. Its a synergy thing.
Second is the quality of the turntable, not cost but for some this may be the issue if you can not get off the beaten path and do some work yourself. Yes I am in the idler drive regimen and it takes some work to get it right , but once again, when it is right its dammed good.
Lastly the phono pre, many many ways to do this one to, but don't scimp here. My choice is diy tube stuff, but there are good ss and opamp base stuff out there.
As for my Digital side, I used to use an early Phillips player that I loved but its gone (house fire along with my music collection) so now I am building a pc based sever and diy dac stuff.
It is getting close to my vinyl rig and still in its infancy....never thought I would say this.
The key to vinyl is three fold and usually requires time and money to get it right, but when it is its pretty damned good.
Matching tone arms and cartridges is the biggest things, and most people don't get it or only get close. Its a synergy thing.
Second is the quality of the turntable, not cost but for some this may be the issue if you can not get off the beaten path and do some work yourself. Yes I am in the idler drive regimen and it takes some work to get it right , but once again, when it is right its dammed good.
Lastly the phono pre, many many ways to do this one to, but don't scimp here. My choice is diy tube stuff, but there are good ss and opamp base stuff out there.
As for my Digital side, I used to use an early Phillips player that I loved but its gone (house fire along with my music collection) so now I am building a pc based sever and diy dac stuff.
It is getting close to my vinyl rig and still in its infancy....never thought I would say this.
I see this topic is still going on. I'll make a few comments and then get out of the way. Our Audio Club (Pacific Northwest Audio Society) does comparisons on a fairly regular basis and Vinyl has always beat CD's in endless comparisons that we've conducted using SOTA TTs and CD players (with and without separate DACs).
The overwealming concenus is still in favor of Vinyl, although CD's are getting better, they still fall short in our comparisons. This is done on SOTA gear, so whatever anyone thinks of $2000-3000 gear, that's fine and I wouldn't argue. Even High-Rez downloads (which always beat the CD Disc media) have always fallen a bit short of Vinyl although it is getting a lot closer.
Just to round it off, all of the above are blown out of the water by R2R tape at 15 ips and it shouldn't surprise anyone that 1/4 inch tape falls short of the same music played back on 1/2 inch tape!
Best Regards,
TerryO
The overwealming concenus is still in favor of Vinyl, although CD's are getting better, they still fall short in our comparisons. This is done on SOTA gear, so whatever anyone thinks of $2000-3000 gear, that's fine and I wouldn't argue. Even High-Rez downloads (which always beat the CD Disc media) have always fallen a bit short of Vinyl although it is getting a lot closer.
Just to round it off, all of the above are blown out of the water by R2R tape at 15 ips and it shouldn't surprise anyone that 1/4 inch tape falls short of the same music played back on 1/2 inch tape!
Best Regards,
TerryO
Before you go Terry, what's the DAC that's got closest to vinyl on RBCD material in your listening?
I believe the R2R is the absolute best....I wish I could listen to it!
Interesting about the comparisons you have ran! I would love to know more specific on the Front End both digital and analogue and rest of the system.
I feel like many people only focuse on the warmth of the vinyl and miss other important parameters on hi-end listening experience, such as speed,quietness, frequency extension, low distortion, very fine details etc, etc....
That noisy dCs dac you described back does a good job ..🙂
If cost is the concern , its easier to get the TT right than the reel. My R2R even at 15 ips does not match the TT, its close , but i will have to update it and of course the recorded material is important and costly .
Following up to Terry's last post hi-rez gives you a glimpes of the possibilities, i have not heard any server system +dac at any cost that has surpassed analog. Analog surface noise if offensive is usually from poor tracking ..
Still, may I suggest getting rid of your phono stage.
The dual channel amplifier IC it employs, is manufactured for automobile audio use. (Daewoo 1010, Samsung/KIA and Toshiba 7325)
Secondly, and more importantly, it has a single (active) RIAA equalization stage.
There's good reason for TT folks to spend considerably on phono stages.
One aspect, why it's hard for a turntable to compete with CD in terms of $/SQ, imo.
I would say that at the low cost end of the spectrum you may well get better sound from digital.
]Lets see, new cartridge $85, new record changer with arm $59, washer to level cartridge to the record $0.004, used disco mixer $15, parts to make disco mixer civilized $25. Power amp works on either digital or analog.
CD player, $59, same disco mixer relays it to the power amp. Not that big a difference. I lucked out on the turntable, but all kind of mid range LP turntables are showing up at the charity resale shop with bad belts or drive wheels, $15. No good cartridges yet, mostly low end shows up used.
Ok, is this kind of a joke? I am referring to things that are a bit more performing! At that level of things they all sound the same!! ...i.e. Badddd
I've never heard a system better than mine, except Long Point Cinema. BTW the previous incarnation was AR turntable (1961 version) with ADC cartridge and later Grado FTE cartridge, into Dynaco PAS2 preamp. This sounds better.
The problem with the demo of the MacIntosh-Klipschorn off 1/4" Ampex mag tape in a specially built Klipsch-room may have been the source material (light jazz, trumpet and string bass is not that hard to reproduce IMHO) but my point is diy engineering is free.
Standing by for some diyaudio tests of high end equipment within 200 miles of here. I've never heard computer music that didn't sound like ****. I understand with high bit rate better than MP3 is possible, but I've never heard it. And computer speakers are a joke.
Some diy's had a meet in a senior center 70 miles from here, I took one look at the picture at the building and stayed home. I can't tell anything in a cinder block room of moderate size and shape suitable for a cheap meeting of 60 seniors. Same with the Burning Amp meet in hotel conference rooms with particle board and fluff "room separators". Why bother crossing the street to hear that. My room is 14'W x 10' H X 35' long, with carpet and plenty of stuffed furniture. Same shape as the concert hall in Wein. If somebody rents a decently shaped school auditorium or old style movie theater, preferably with house Western Electric Altec VOT system, then I might drive to hear some gear. The Houston Long Point Cinema with VOT's sounded pretty good in 1966, as my band director pointed out. But a demo must be on piano or European orchestra or difficult source material where I know what it should sound like and am used to reproductions being wrong, not trumpet and string bass.
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Ok don't know exactly what systems you are used to. Also, when I talk about digital, I refer to high resolution streamed off from a Mac PC to a high resolution Dac and all fed to a real hi-end system, not computer speakers.
Have you listened carefully to a modern hi-end system that is worth at least more than $15K (although you don't need to go that high) from source to speakers to cables and everything? If you did so and you are telling me that your system with $75 TT, cartridge from the 60s etc, etc...sounds better....wel..
To begin with, you really don't need a freaking auditorium to appreciate the qualities of the system, that is nuts!!
You do need some room's treatment which is not just stuffing things in although works better than empty room.
The bigger the room and the more professional help you need to fix the acoustic's problem. So if you are telling me that your room is that big, I am assuming you got some serious professional room control to do if you want to obtain the maximum out of it.
BTW MP3 is not even in the ballpark of anything and if you can't tell the difference between MP3 and just a simple cheap CD, well, then I don't know what to say! Hi-Resolution is even better than SACD, which is much better than CD.
A cheap analogue front end, with cheap phono won't stand not even closely the realm and correctness of the sound of the digital.
Not to mention, distortion, noise floor etc etc. One thing to mention is soundstage: Cheap analogue front end, will just produce a vague image not solid and poor in 3D and especially resolution. Sound likely comes from the speakers and it's not multi-directional.
I could continue on and on, but in short is that when you start going up in range with your TT, cartridge, tonearm and phono (especially) you will start mitigate the difference. Certain parameter of the digital will always be unreachable such as noise floor and distortion, but at that level they will become not so obvious to the ears anymore that the rest of the things that vinyl has to offer at level of things, is just overwhelming. 😱
😎
wow, that is an interesting statement. I have never heard anybody saying that.
What digital source and analogue front end do you have? Maybe you already mentioned it...if so..sorry...but I don't remember!
I have never listened to a R2R tape. Have you replaced the internal preamp on your reel?
Terry, how do you know you're dealing with the same masters? And how do you level-match?
I'm asking this because when I insert a 16/44 A/DA-D/A into my analog chain at matched (and not clipping) input/output levels, neither I nor anyone else who's tried could hear a difference. My vinyl setup is a pretty good one, so the "you've just got inferior equipment" dog doesn't hunt.
I'm asking this because when I insert a 16/44 A/DA-D/A into my analog chain at matched (and not clipping) input/output levels, neither I nor anyone else who's tried could hear a difference. My vinyl setup is a pretty good one, so the "you've just got inferior equipment" dog doesn't hunt.
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