Easy to beat , prove it everyweek and it makes me wonder when i hear these digital vs analog comments , what those individuals are really being exposed to to come to these conclusions ..
2000dollars can get you into an entry VPI traveller and quite a few MC or MM cartridges. Very good budget cartridges like the Denon DL110 or the At440 mla/ not to mention Grado with an 8mz stylus are very good starters. My DL110 /AR-es-1 betters any music server or CD i have ever heard costing 2 K or more, betters my 2k rega Cd player For sure too, Same when compared to my linn and updated TD-160.
Setup and maintenance is critical for a good analog rig to work , good pressings , is a must, many who decry analog usually site their favorite poor pressings from yore as assertion that analog fails.
Bad analog pressings are really bad and anemic, the very good is really good , ironically digital to analog pressings are very good and exceed Cd , i have many copies of both and have done the comparisons many times and anyone presented to the two , agree regardless of their digital only preference ...
Again for 2 K their are many choices on a used table, new it is a bit more limited, but it can be done especially with current VPI and Rega offerings..
2000dollars can get you into an entry VPI traveller and quite a few MC or MM cartridges. Very good budget cartridges like the Denon DL110 or the At440 mla/ not to mention Grado with an 8mz stylus are very good starters. My DL110 /AR-es-1 betters any music server or CD i have ever heard costing 2 K or more, betters my 2k rega Cd player For sure too, Same when compared to my linn and updated TD-160.
Setup and maintenance is critical for a good analog rig to work , good pressings , is a must, many who decry analog usually site their favorite poor pressings from yore as assertion that analog fails.
Bad analog pressings are really bad and anemic, the very good is really good , ironically digital to analog pressings are very good and exceed Cd , i have many copies of both and have done the comparisons many times and anyone presented to the two , agree regardless of their digital only preference ...
Again for 2 K their are many choices on a used table, new it is a bit more limited, but it can be done especially with current VPI and Rega offerings..
Last edited:
I can only conclude from this that the studio's DAC (the one they used to make the transfer to vinyl) is considerably better than the one you're using.
I was just visiting an audio exhibition and listened to countless megabuck TT rigs, and no matter how nice and enjoyable they sounded, they never sounded right like a good CD or server rig.
Whenever I moved to the next room and it had digital, it was like a quick rinse in the shower: ah, fresh again!
Don't let yourself get influenced by guys who have gone down their personal rabbit-hole and decided that worse is better and 'measurements must be measuring the wrong thing', etc etc etc etc, any excuse to support the insupportable view.
We shouldn't still need to discuss this. It should be a 'beginner's question' where more senior audiophiles quickly set the question straight and it's done. Instead, we have to deal with a camp who don't understand what's going on and how to do a proper listening evaluation that isn't biased, and think it's impossible that they could have a personal preference for something that actually produces worse sound. So, round and round we go; 42 pages and 3 years later.
Whenever I moved to the next room and it had digital, it was like a quick rinse in the shower: ah, fresh again!
Don't let yourself get influenced by guys who have gone down their personal rabbit-hole and decided that worse is better and 'measurements must be measuring the wrong thing', etc etc etc etc, any excuse to support the insupportable view.
We shouldn't still need to discuss this. It should be a 'beginner's question' where more senior audiophiles quickly set the question straight and it's done. Instead, we have to deal with a camp who don't understand what's going on and how to do a proper listening evaluation that isn't biased, and think it's impossible that they could have a personal preference for something that actually produces worse sound. So, round and round we go; 42 pages and 3 years later.
Better than a 60k DCS setup vs 10K analog rig, we have done the comparision here too, you have to hear how really bad cd is on the top end..
Ps: My conclusions are not from my rig only, its from hearing analog constantly wiping the floor with digital after numerous A/b testing , so i gave up on my 17k wadia setup and bought the Rega CD player for 2 k, my disposition on it is, it will come , i will sit and wait and i do believe there is alot there just not willing to spend on digital , its a moving target and not there yet and i have friends spending bookoo cash on servers , dacs , etc and they do agree everytime we do these comparisions..
Personally i dont think most are exposed to good analog , so they will never get it and good means properly setup in a good rig , not some expensive ornament ..
Last edited:
I was thinking now....
That I frequently use Cd as a source when prototyping loudspeakers because they're quick
and I can move from Beastie Boys to Janacek - say heavy bass & hi hats or piano & flute or brass - then when I'm done I'm more relaxed and can put some vynil.
(and find that the sound is a little different, due to many things )
That I frequently use Cd as a source when prototyping loudspeakers because they're quick
and I can move from Beastie Boys to Janacek - say heavy bass & hi hats or piano & flute or brass - then when I'm done I'm more relaxed and can put some vynil.
(and find that the sound is a little different, due to many things )
dCs is based on S-D, noise modulation city. I don't hear anything wrong with RBCD's top end, played back via multibit. DSD (S-D again) is another matter entirely though.
Did you compare it to an Lp copy of the same recording , you should then we can move on to making digital really work and no Im not anti-digital , my TT has no remote , its a pain in the **** ...
No, I have no LPs any longer. Digital works totally fine for me, I used to have LP and wouldn't go back there as piano sounds like the real thing now.
The only copy that I have on Cd and Vinyl is...
guess...
TDSOTM by PF 😱 Cd is 1992 digital remaster
Edit: Also John Wesley Harding by Dylan
and...
Used to play a lot The Piper at the Gat...well what's Pink Floyd first album ? Yes ! Of Dawn ! On Cd for about 20 years. Then I remembered when I re-discovered vinyl one year ago, that I
had it also on LP, so this summer I played it and found it much more pleasant, much less EQ'ed on bass range- But that's acceptable for the first row of remasterings of the eighties that had
the 'mission' to stress the capabilities of the 'new media'
guess...
TDSOTM by PF 😱 Cd is 1992 digital remaster
Edit: Also John Wesley Harding by Dylan
and...
Used to play a lot The Piper at the Gat...well what's Pink Floyd first album ? Yes ! Of Dawn ! On Cd for about 20 years. Then I remembered when I re-discovered vinyl one year ago, that I
had it also on LP, so this summer I played it and found it much more pleasant, much less EQ'ed on bass range- But that's acceptable for the first row of remasterings of the eighties that had
the 'mission' to stress the capabilities of the 'new media'
Last edited:
The comparison I'm doing is the recorded sound vs the real thing - I have two pianos (Kawai, Schimmel) here to allow that 😉
Wayne, sorry but I don't agree with you...in the fact that an entry level VPI traveler with a DL103 or even worse, an MM, will better a 2K music server.
I think you are being a little biased here.
A cheap cartridge won't track well and has lots of distortion, not too mention with cheap arms and tables.
Rotation is not constant as it should, noise floor is not the best.
And here we haven't factored in the phono. so if you get a 2K music server you have to have a 1K turntable with arm and cartridge and a 1K phono stage.
I can surely tell you....good luck!!! BTW, with the traveler and a decent cartridge you are already out of budget 🙂
A cheap phono will totally destroy the sound! Completely!!! Maybe phono is the weakest link at certain levels that can account the significant difference with digital there, but surely as you go up range, everything will become important and you realize that analogue is no match for the digital at least price-wise especially now that they have music servers and mechanic is gone!
At very high level, I then begin to think that Vinyl will likely win...and if it wasn't like this I wouldn't spend time designing the best phono stage nor optimizing my expensive table, arm, cartridge and so on.
I do still think that Digital still has something to offer that vinyl unfortunately doesn't have: noise level. We can't discuss this as it is obviously and advantageous parameter in favor of digital.
Also distortion, it is another one.
In the end though, high level analogue, will mitigate all these differences from the two world to a level where the ear doesn't start to mind so much anymore, but on top of that it will add the characteristic of a fluent and realistic sound that can ONLY come from a true analogue which includes pressings that are rigorously pressed from ORIGINAL MASTER TAPE on a FULL Analogue chain.
Hope this makes sense!
I think you are being a little biased here.
A cheap cartridge won't track well and has lots of distortion, not too mention with cheap arms and tables.
Rotation is not constant as it should, noise floor is not the best.
And here we haven't factored in the phono. so if you get a 2K music server you have to have a 1K turntable with arm and cartridge and a 1K phono stage.
I can surely tell you....good luck!!! BTW, with the traveler and a decent cartridge you are already out of budget 🙂
A cheap phono will totally destroy the sound! Completely!!! Maybe phono is the weakest link at certain levels that can account the significant difference with digital there, but surely as you go up range, everything will become important and you realize that analogue is no match for the digital at least price-wise especially now that they have music servers and mechanic is gone!
At very high level, I then begin to think that Vinyl will likely win...and if it wasn't like this I wouldn't spend time designing the best phono stage nor optimizing my expensive table, arm, cartridge and so on.
I do still think that Digital still has something to offer that vinyl unfortunately doesn't have: noise level. We can't discuss this as it is obviously and advantageous parameter in favor of digital.
Also distortion, it is another one.
In the end though, high level analogue, will mitigate all these differences from the two world to a level where the ear doesn't start to mind so much anymore, but on top of that it will add the characteristic of a fluent and realistic sound that can ONLY come from a true analogue which includes pressings that are rigorously pressed from ORIGINAL MASTER TAPE on a FULL Analogue chain.
Hope this makes sense!
No bias , i'm a result person, if it's not good, its gone , i dumped my Krell fpb400 because it would trip on the big bembeh, and you are just plain wrong on the Denon being a poor tracker, your arm is not setup right or is no good, the Denon does not track as well as my Koestsu , but its right there , arm quality and setup is the key..
No super hi level necessary for analog to work and i did say you need a good phono pre, digital needs a good pre too ...
Last edited:
no it tracks fine, you are right. I measured it's tracking ability and for the type of elliptic stylus it had it tracks very good.
However, it seems that measured tracking on a simple test record don't correlate to the real information retrieving process that a cartridge has to perform on grooves recorded with modulated music.
So it turns out that detail level is poor for stock cartridge, and a little better for modified one.
I do have owned that cartridge for a long time and also tried a modified cartridge with a very high performing profile.
In the end, the sound was pretty cheap, lack of colors and resolution even if compared to a "modest" 2K digital system.
No question about that!
However, it seems that measured tracking on a simple test record don't correlate to the real information retrieving process that a cartridge has to perform on grooves recorded with modulated music.
So it turns out that detail level is poor for stock cartridge, and a little better for modified one.
I do have owned that cartridge for a long time and also tried a modified cartridge with a very high performing profile.
In the end, the sound was pretty cheap, lack of colors and resolution even if compared to a "modest" 2K digital system.
No question about that!
Digital doesn't need anything else other than a line preamplifier and a power amp, while analogue needs cartridge, arm, table, phono equalizer, line stage and power amp.
If you just do a head count you will easily understand why an analogue cannot match the price point of a digital solution at entry/mid level!
If you just do a head count you will easily understand why an analogue cannot match the price point of a digital solution at entry/mid level!
Really you must have missed all the eletronics necessary in a cd player for audio to come out the other end ..🙂
Where analogue quite often fairs better is that the quality of 'realism' comes through more strongly - the objectivists have a hard time latching onto what is meant by this, but the necessary behaviour is pretty clear to me. Human hearing is very adept at hearing low level information that co-exists with the big, obvious, thundering notes which are the main musical thread - yes, masking occurs, but a split second after the loud 'bit' does its thing the ear can immediately latch onto what the background sounds are 'saying'. And if that is not right then the brain gives the reproduction a 'fail' mark - no matter how good the big, in your face, loud stuff is.
And that's where digital used to go badly off the rails - and still does to some degree -- people complain about not being able to hear the 'decay', or that the latter doesn't sound 'right'. This is classic digital distortion, and has nothing to do with the format itself - it's equivalent to a cartridge being misaligned in the arm: while the geometry of the needle in the groove is wrong then the vinyl playback will be 'off' - and so it is for digital, if there are low level electronic problems then the sound will never satisfy, no matter what the usual numbers say ...
And that's where digital used to go badly off the rails - and still does to some degree -- people complain about not being able to hear the 'decay', or that the latter doesn't sound 'right'. This is classic digital distortion, and has nothing to do with the format itself - it's equivalent to a cartridge being misaligned in the arm: while the geometry of the needle in the groove is wrong then the vinyl playback will be 'off' - and so it is for digital, if there are low level electronic problems then the sound will never satisfy, no matter what the usual numbers say ...
Last edited:
Lets see, new cartridge $85, new record changer with arm $59, washer to level cartridge to the record $0.004, used disco mixer $15, parts to make disco mixer civilized $25. Power amp works on either digital or analog.Digital doesn't need anything else other than a line preamplifier and a power amp, while analogue needs cartridge, arm, table, phono equalizer, line stage and power amp.
If you just do a head count you will easily understand why an analogue cannot match the price point of a digital solution at entry/mid level!
CD player, $59, same disco mixer relays it to the power amp. Not that big a difference. I lucked out on the turntable, but all kind of mid range LP turntables are showing up at the charity resale shop with bad belts or drive wheels, $15. No good cartridges yet, mostly low end shows up used. My favorite is the 1978 Shure M97 Era IV at 1.5 g tracking force, still in production last time I checked.
The big difference, used LP's are2 or three for $1, used CD's $1-12. And most CD's were mastered by the marketing department for car radios, ie a signal to noise ratio of 10 db. Pop records are only 10 db, but classical records are 30-50 db signal to noise, after washing, if not damaged. There are some 60 + db CD's out there, but few and far between. My best sounding piano sound source, for example, is an RCA dynagroove recording of Peter Nero from the mid seventies. The upper octaves sound very much like my Steinway console sitting in the next room from the speakers. The bass of the piano is better than my console, since they recorded a full sized grand.
I've got two really good sounding piano CD's, George Winston on Windham Hill label. His piano pings on hammer strike even more than mine, possibly a Bosendorfer. But Mr. Winston doesn't use the dynamic range of the piano much, so while the silences between notes, remind me of a farmhouse on the N. Dakota plain in winter, the loud parts are not very stormlike, no "sturm & drang" like Beethoven used.
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.