Even more:
the true contents of a vinyl groove are unknoweable.
The quest for the ultimate reproduction shall never bear fruit.
the true contents of a vinyl groove are unknoweable.
The quest for the ultimate reproduction shall never bear fruit.
He would be more of a hero if he actually contributed something. Just 'beating down' is useful to no one, anyone can say 'you're wrong', it's takes somewhat more to explain their viewpoint.
Fighting over the precise definitions of oversampling vs upsampling also takes us away from the cut, which is why do CDs sound worse than LPs?
Personally I view the modern loudness war and the deliberate act of clipping modern CD waveforms as the worst act of the record companies as regards quality of sound. While we argue about the CD being perfect and people not knowing what 'upsampling' means to the nth usage the record companies are merrily ruining our sound. The deliberate acts of vandalism (removing the dynamics, clipping, refusing to open SACD etc.) should be our main focus here. Modern rock acts just sound stupid on CD now - as their crescendo's appear you can hear the gain being turned down. What's all that about? Am I supposed to believe in the studio that they all turn their instruments down and play softer in the loud parts? What happened to the dynamics of Floyd, Sky, Genesis, Bowie etc??
As for clipping; I mean - have you actually seen that waveform you've just purchased on CD? I bet no one on here has - or they'd be talking about that instead. My Black Eyed Peas CD was unplayable on my DAC, I spent a number of days trying to track down a loose connection until I arrived at the CD waveform I'd been sold.
In the meantime it looks like mid 80's vinyl will remain the peak of quality for many of us!
What is the part in this http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/173663-how-better-turntable-compared-cd-27.html#post2315739 contribution of mine that needs explaining to you?
Absolutely. But then why did you start, emphasising the difference between the two that you believe there is?
Last time I spoke to a mastering engineer he abhorred what he was doing, but the situation was simple: go along with it or see the customers take their business elsewhere and ruin your reputation with it.
And what are you going to do? Stop buying music?
Have you actually seen my signature?
Didn't even have to go that far; I couldn't distinguish input from output when running through an A/D - D/A chain (the sound card in my computer).
Pano, the absolute worst pre-echo offenders in my record collection are those highly-regarded Proprius albums. They're almost unlistenable.
No, not at the level of objective data (frequency response, distortion etc).
Of course, some may prefer the sound of LP to CD. But that is different from the engineering superiority of CD over LP as a storage and transmission medium.
His reputation is allready at loose. Do you think Bruce Swedien could swollow the disappointment and do such productions?
Better sell ice-cream instead and not have your name dragged in the dirt.
We are the real customers
Yes, at least I allready have.
I listen to my old collections, even though I try new stuff trough "other channels" to see if it's worth to listen to with good HiFi equipment.
Last disapointment was Europe's last album. To much averall distortion. Before that P.Mc Cartney. To compressed. When there should be a dynamic "plonk" on the bass or the drum there was a strangled mmmp at the same volume 🙁 Offcource it would have been easy and great to record on those old casette tape recorders from the -70's and -80's. Which had problems with those days Vinylrecords dynamic.
About SACD. Who needs it if every mastering engineer swallow and compress everything so that you just need 8 bit for D/A conversion?
🙂 Good, but it looks like you have given up the fight 😉
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From what I can tell the predominant driving forces behind the loudness wars are the record companies marketing teams and the artists ("Can you make as loud as xyz?" The first truly crushed album was the Stooges 'Raw Power' re-mastered by Iggy himself. Unlistenable!).
The most successful mix/mastering engineers these days are the Lord-Alge brothers. I have yet to come across any of their work which is pleasurable to listen to. Sound On Sound had an interview with associated gear list of one of them. Just dozens and dozens of compressors wreaking havoc on otherwise good music. Yet many artists dream of having their album 'mastered' by one of them!
And yes, I have practically stopped buying new music because of this. There is plenty good sounding old stuff (on cd and vinyl) around to keep me busy for many years to come.
Well I suppose I'm some sort of audio pervert, but I actually like to hear the recording medium. Not too much, mind you, but some. Tape hiss, clicks and pops, wonky cassette speeds, FM fades and noise, short wave squeals. I like 'em!
Digital is Switzerland. All alpine dynamics and pure, clear air. The trains run on time, the citizens are polite, the streets clean. Nice enough for a visit, but hardly a passionate place. But just pop over the border to Italy (LP) or France (tape) and it's a different world.
The flaws in the medium remind me that it's just a recording, a process - and I like that process. Digital can be so darn clean that I want to think it's the real thing. But it never is. And it's just not a lot of fun. Sure is convenient, tho.
Please also see Netlist's post #306 on the previous page.
Digital is Switzerland. All alpine dynamics and pure, clear air. The trains run on time, the citizens are polite, the streets clean. Nice enough for a visit, but hardly a passionate place. But just pop over the border to Italy (LP) or France (tape) and it's a different world.
The flaws in the medium remind me that it's just a recording, a process - and I like that process. Digital can be so darn clean that I want to think it's the real thing. But it never is. And it's just not a lot of fun. Sure is convenient, tho.
Please also see Netlist's post #306 on the previous page.
And does it help? Do you see a reduction in compression since you started
stopping buying music?
Who knows, perhaps you are the one to thank for Sigh No More's relatively unmolested dynamics, even though there is a bit of clipping.
Sigh. I don't buy many modern releases myself, and I totally eschew remastering jobs. Present-day production values, and musicianship, are a disaster area. But then since its inception in the late 1800s the music industry has always been in one or the other state of transition. IMHO this is just one of them.
I have this pet theory that part of the appeal of vinyl is in the effort and struggle that go with it and that act as substitute for the listener's lack of active involvement in the actual performance. If I want to listen to this artist then I have to invest/suffer myself a bit.
I think that vinyl fanatics think vinyl somehow makes analog sound better. And they always will no matter how good digital becomes.
Yeah Werner, that is part of it for me. Having most of my music on a server is super easy - but actually sitting down to listen to an LP is more of an "Experience." I used to hate it and think it was a chore. Now I kinda dig it. I do feel more involved.
Meanwhile, by listening to CD,the listener has active involvement in the actual performance, eh...?
B.L
The effort and struggle that goes into it (vinyl), as well as the consumable nature of the media and playback hardware (stylii) is definitely an investment. As a result of that investment, when I fire up the turntable and put an album on I am more likely to sit down and actually listen to what is playing. As opposed to listening to a CD where I am far more likely to be easily distracted by something else.
We are the real customers
No, unfortunately we are not. We are not even on the radar screen.
CD is better than LP - well, for most people
The following observation may have already been made somewhere up thread.
For most music listeners (read as: not audiophiles) the CD presented a vast improvement in sound quality (yes, I said sound) over their turntable, or their 'record player' as they were far more commonly called.
My recollection of the LP playback at nearly every regular household I had ever visited was that of a relatively noisy and scratchy affair usually featuring a drop-down record changer with that characteristic F-shaped stabilizer bar and ceramic needle, I mean, stylus. 😉 It wasn't long before frequently played records became nearly unlistenable for the noise and distortion that rapidly accumulated through each playing.
For the average music listener, CD was/is a huge improvement in precisely those areas where the typical record playback was most audibly offensive (that is, IN THE AVERAGE HOME PLAYBACK SYSTEM). Of course, this improvement in sound was accompanied by a great improvement in user convenience as well, which together explain why the CD killed the LP among casual listeners despite CDs having a selling price twice that of LPs carrying the same program material at the time.
Among perfectionist audio consumers, meaning those often having multi-thousand dollar systems featuring meticulously set-up 'turntables', discwasher cleaned LPs all properly stored in their sleeves, quality amplification, and speakers weighing more than 20 pounds, the emotional communication of LP playback was THEN audibly superiority to that of digital playback. However, for the vast majority of 'normal' music consumers, CD was/is superior in every way aside from price.
The following observation may have already been made somewhere up thread.
For most music listeners (read as: not audiophiles) the CD presented a vast improvement in sound quality (yes, I said sound) over their turntable, or their 'record player' as they were far more commonly called.
My recollection of the LP playback at nearly every regular household I had ever visited was that of a relatively noisy and scratchy affair usually featuring a drop-down record changer with that characteristic F-shaped stabilizer bar and ceramic needle, I mean, stylus. 😉 It wasn't long before frequently played records became nearly unlistenable for the noise and distortion that rapidly accumulated through each playing.
For the average music listener, CD was/is a huge improvement in precisely those areas where the typical record playback was most audibly offensive (that is, IN THE AVERAGE HOME PLAYBACK SYSTEM). Of course, this improvement in sound was accompanied by a great improvement in user convenience as well, which together explain why the CD killed the LP among casual listeners despite CDs having a selling price twice that of LPs carrying the same program material at the time.
Among perfectionist audio consumers, meaning those often having multi-thousand dollar systems featuring meticulously set-up 'turntables', discwasher cleaned LPs all properly stored in their sleeves, quality amplification, and speakers weighing more than 20 pounds, the emotional communication of LP playback was THEN audibly superiority to that of digital playback. However, for the vast majority of 'normal' music consumers, CD was/is superior in every way aside from price.
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